Gordon Craig

Gents, At the on Sunday morning at the City Park Flea Market I discovered another smaller cap badge for the Hungarian Freedom Fighters Association. It is the exact same design as the previously pictured cap badge but is onlt 31mm wide by 32mm high. I've attached a picture showing the badges side-by-side for a size comparison. Still no idea what the cap looks likew that these badges were worn on. Perhaps Charles can get some photos through his meeting with the association. Regards, Gordon

Richard, Thanks very much for posting the pictures of the medals and the case. As I suspected the one Charles and I have owned is a copy. The picture of the attachment ring is as I thought it should. Not like the one on my medal. Now everyone on the forum knows how to tell a real one from a fake. Lots of ways once you look at the real thing and then the fake. If you ever come across another case or decide to part with your it would find a good home with me. Your pictures are really excellent and we all owe you a big vote of thanks for taking the time and effort to post them. Regards, Gordon

Grant, Your clasp is a Classification badge for sea going personnel. It came in three classes. This particular type was used from 1986 to 1990. Treat them gently as the plastic insert in the centre is just glued into place and comes off rather easily. All of the badges are identical except for the centre plastic piece. The plastic pieces are very thin and break easily if they come off. I have glued them back into place successfuly but you need to be careful and only use very little gluse so it doesn't squeeze out around the edges. Regards, Gordon

Dan, Nice start to a your police collection. I'd like to add a couple of comments. Hopefully they will be useful. 1-All of the first medals you posted all bear the last type pin used in the DDR from about 1986 to 89 so any Urkunde you purchase to go with them, if you intend to do that, should be dated to match. 2-There are no Akademy badges for NCOs. Only for officers. The two you have shown are; a-Wiess mit grunem rand (white with green border) der Hochschule der Deutsche Volkespolizei "Karl Liebnecht" in Berlin b-grau mit grunem rand (grey with green border) zivile hochschulen Basically, the one badge was awarded for taking your training at the DVP akademy while the other was for graduating from a civilian university. 3-the Dog Handlers qualification badges were given to individual policemen who were qualified dog handlers. They were issued from 1966 to 1989. 4-The early folder and urkunde was a great find. This award only came into being on 28.04.55 and you have an urkunde for one of the very first medals awarded. This pink tone colour of folder was discontinued after a while and you only see it for medals awarded in the early years of the DDR. If you will look at the picture of the medal you will notice it bears the three colour shield and not the later compass and hammer state seal. For this urkunde you will need to find an early medal to match. They are not easy to locate, probably only through ebay.de, and it will be pricey when you find it. Keep up the good work of adding to your collection and posting them for our enjoyment. Regards, Gordon

Paul, No they did not have the same colours as the Third Reich. They all wore green, as you will see in some future posts, or the NVA colours as shown in this post. Since there was only the NVA and not a separate air force etc there was only the NVA Forestry Service and not the multiplicity of Forestery Services that existed in the Third Reich. There is nothing in print on the DDR Forestry Services and only a few of us have studied it in any depth. What I have learned about the DDR Forestry Service comes from the DDR Regs, the uniforms I own and a great resource, a member of the faculty at a University in Berlin, who collects German Forestry item. Dating tabs and tunics can be difficult. Especially as I mentioned, the West German ones. I'll try to cover that in some depth when I post some more uniforms. Regards, Gordon

And finally, a shot of the loops above the left upper pocket. More photos of my DDR Forestry collection will follow over the next few days.

The shirt shoulders.

Next comes the shirt.

Next is the collar tabs and shoulderboards. The collar tabs are of machine embroiders grey thread. You see lots of these for sale on ebay.de and they must all be fakes. There just too many of them for a small service like the NVA Forestry Service. The shoulderboards have a silver metallic underlay and a dark green cord overlay with a single silver acorn. Interestingly eneough, this tunic has the acorn facing in the Third Reich style IE towards the collar. It has obviously always been on the shoulderboards in this position. Nico has promised me a copy of the NVA Forestry Regs but I have not received them yet so I can not confirm the authenticity of the acorn placement on these boards but I suspect the NVA Forsetry Service, like the Army third Reich Forestry Service before them adoted some changes to the standard State Forestry Regs.

The next pictures will be that of the first East German Forestry Sevice that I bought. When I bid on this uniform I had no real idea what it was never having seen an East German Forestry uniform previously. It was listed as an East German Foresrty uniform but I do not think eother the vendor nor anyone else who was bidding really knew what they were bidding on. After some years of research I was able to identify this uniform as belonginh to the NVA Forestry Service. Only last years when I visited Berlin was I bale to confirm for certain that the NVA did indeed have a small Forestry Service when my friend Nico showed my a set of regulations for this service. It is completely different from other East German Forestry uniforms in that it is cut exactly like an NVA uniform. It has the same buttons as the NVA but the shoulderboards of the Satate Forestry Service. It is also of a very unusual colour of grey/green that exists in no other DDR organization that I am aware of. It is also unique in that it has a dagger hanger inside and aslit in the left waist for the dagger hanger to protrude from. This confused me because the DDR Forestry Sevice did not have a dagger. It was possible that the DDR NVA Forestry Service wore the army dagger. A couple of years ago when I bought a set of uniforms from a retired West German forester I asked him about East German Forestry daggers and if they wore them. He said it was possible because forestry daggers were produced and sold in the DDR. This is still an unresolved question. The tunic has thread loops over the left breast pocket for the wear of a ribbon bar/awards. The uniform pictured next is the only one like it I have ever seen. It came with a peaked cap in a matching colour. It has a grey/green shirt totally unlike the DDR NVA shirts. It is designed to be worn tucked into the pants unlike the NVA shirt which follows the Russina style. It has small silver buttons 12mm in diamtre sewn on. There is a button on each sleeve to allow them to be worn rolled up and fastened into place. It has the standard DDR type of shoulderboard attachments on the shoulders but it did not come with shoulderboards. The tie is a strange colour of dark green. Again, unlike any other DDR tie I have seen. It is fastened around the neck with an elastic band. The trousers are for wear outside the boots and have a dark green stripe down the outside seam of each leg.

The shoulderboards and collar tabs for this uniform. While the collar tabs are of the correct rank to match the shoulderboards they are not the correct collar tabs for the army being the dark green of the State Forestry Service. It appears the original collar tabs were removed at some point in the past and State Forestry collar tabs hand sewn into place. I have never been able to find a pair of army black background collar tabs of any rank let alone one to match this tunic.

Gents, In another thread I promised to post pictures of my East German Forestry uniform collection. I'll also include as much of the histroy as I have been able to find on this organization. At the end of WWII, the German Forestry Service continued to wear their Third Reich uniforms with the insignia removed. These uniforms were introduced by Herman Georing in 1935. In the early 50's, about the time the SMAD came to an end and the DDR came into being, new uniform regulations were produced for the East German Forestry Service. The uniform design remained the same as that adopted in 1935. The Forestry Service in the DDR stayed a national service as it had been in the Third Reich. The West German Forestry Service reverted to the pre-Third Reich structure of individual State Forestry Services rather than a national forestry service. The West Germans also maintained the 1935 uniforms. Other than the labels indicating where the uniform was made, if they are present, it is difficult to tell the uniforms of the two services apart and extremely difficult to tell a West German Forestry uniform for one made during the Third Reich period. The only obvious difference was that the West German Foresrty Service maintained the previous custom of having the cap of the acorn used in the rank structure point towards the collar while the Est Germans had the acorn cap face the shoulder seam. The acorns and shoulderboards look identical with a very similar rank structure. The East German Forestry Service wore the 1935 style uniforms until the end of the DDR in 1990. They did however, introduce some lighter weight uniforms in a different material, but in the same style, at some point during their existance. That date I do not know at this time. The West Germans moved to a new style uniform in the early 1990s. As a reference point, the first uniform pictures I will post are that of the Third Reich Army Forestry Service. Their uniforms and rank structure were patterned after that of the State Forsetry Service with a few exceptions. The shoulderboards are of the army type and use army rank stars instead of the forestry acorns and the collar tabs have black background instead of the dark green of the State Forestry Service. The Army Forestry Service used the same rank structure but instead of being refered to, for instance, as an Oberforester he would be refered to as a Heer Oberforester. Their job function was identical to that of the State Forestry Service only they maintained the forests on army property. I need to edit this post by addidng that this tunic was called the "A Rock" and was the dress tunic. I should also have stated that the Army Forestry Servcie wore the army style of cord as is pictured with this tunic. The tunic comes with the button under the shoulder for the cord, a dagger hanger in the interior and a slit in the left waist for the dagger hanger to protrude from.

Dan, I will have a number of pins left over, duplicates mostly, and some from WP countries that I will be disposing of shortly. I am still sorting through them and deciding which of the WP and youth associated pins I wish to keep. I'll PM you when I am done with the available pieces and prices. They won't be expensive. Regards, Gordon

Dan, Nice Munkasor group from Charles. My recent thread on Torzsgarda pin should help you figure out what a lot of the pins are that Charles included with the group. Regards, Gordon

Ulsterman, Your point is well taken re the alloy. Since I was not aware of the alloy dates etc. until your post on the Partisan badges I never thought much about the "staybrite" qualities of these badges. Since they came from a factory in the metals business they would have been up there on the latest materials. Thanks for your work on the Partisan Badges alloys. Great stuff. I'll post some other T?RZSG?RDA pins later today. Some use the same alloy others different types of materials. Regards, Gordon

Order of Victory, Yes that is an interesting and different way to connect two VVOs. Usually they are mounted close together without any gap between the ribbons. That is one of the things that attracted me to this pair. Regards, Gordon

Ulsterman, Thanks for the update on materials and the badge it self. I'd like to buy the pair I saw at the market but the price is just too high. I guess I will just have to be patient. Hard to do as I don't own any of these badges yet!!!!! Besides I blew all my money on some nice badges last Wednesday. Cheers, Gordon

Kevin, Thanks for posting pictures of my VVO pair. I tried to copy that picture from WAF earlier today but couldn't open what I copied. For the other chaps looking at these VVOs there is a picture missing. These are both very early VVOs. The silver one has a small silver content mark of 925 (if I remember correctly) at the bottom of the back of the VVO. That mark is pictured on the WAF site. VVOs with the gold and silver content marks were only issued from 1954 until 15.04.1964. They are hard to find and command a premium in price. I do not know if the medals bars are being faked yet but that is very possible. However, what is fake? No doubt lots of the medal bars you find on ebay.de were assembled after 1990 just as most of the ribbon bars are. Medals are plentiful and bars to mount them on are readily available as well. If someone were to assemble a medal bar, and do it correctly in order of precedence, there is no way to tell if it was done before the wall came down or after. One thing to watch for is what order the medals are assembled in. The MfS and the NVA mounted their awards in different directions so if you see an MfS ribbon bar put together the way an NVA bar would have been it is an obvious fake. Having one or two awards out of order is not always a sign of a fake. Sometime people just made mistakes. The only way to learn all you need to know about medal bars and ribbon bars is to buy all of the books you can and study pictures, and actual bars if you can, endlessly. Regards, Gordon

Grant, Your latest badge is from the "Kollective der sozialistischen Arbeit" group. Specifically the "Ehrenspange fur die funfte Verliehung". Regards, Gordon

Dan, I tried transfering the pictures but for some reason I couldn't open them afterwards. However, the picture on the WAF indicates it was taken here in BPEST as the VVOs are sitting on my kitchen counter so I must have them here after all. I don't have room to display things here like I do at home so almost everything is in boxes and I don't always remember what I have. I'll dig the VVO pair out over the weekend and take some pics. Cheers, Gordon

The interior of the certificate. Note the individual who owned the certificate had received the Bronze award once.

Gents, I have more to add to this article. Last weekend end I picked up a small brown paper Socialista Brigad IGAZOLV?NY or Certificate. In my article I mentioned that the bronze, silver and gold pins could be won but proof of the award of the previous one at the bronze or silver level was needed to be awarded the silver or the gold pin. I assumed at the time I wrote the article that the diploma awarded would be needed as proof but the certificate provides an easier way. There are actually three lined pages for recording the award of pins. These three pages for listing awards follow the page giving the recipients name, the name of the Socialist Brigad (an interesting fact in itself) and the date of the award. One other interesting thing on the certificate is the place for the KISZ Secretary to sign. I mentioned earlier in the article that different types of awards were given to the Socialist Brigads that were compase dmostly of members in the KISZ age group (up to age 30). This certificate provides ample proof as to just how involved the KISZ organization was in the Socialista Brigad movement. Regards, Gordon

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