Stuart Bates

William, i was, and still am, under the impression that 6 piece covers were not that common. Cost of manufacture would always win out in the armed forces thinking. And I am not at all surprised that the Guards wore a cover with a real puggaree, but can you say definitely that they are covers rather than khaki helmets with puggaree? And don't risk ruining the photos by scanning them. Jock, that is why I like this forum. People are only too willing to share their information and experiences. Stuart

In Haythornthwaite's book he also shows some naval ratings wearing the straw Sennet hat with a khaki cover. I take it from this and other photos of naval ratings that I have seen that only officers and petty officers wore the helmet. Stuart

Check out Phillip Haythornthwaite's The Boer War (Uniforms Illustrated #19) as it shows plenty of helmet covers without a band. It also has a photograph of three naval officers wearing white helmets without puggarees - at least to my eyes. Stuart

Has anyone had any experience with the product Green Screen Wizard? Stuart

A minefield indeed. I have just seen a Canadian cover to an officer's helmet which features 4 panels and the 1" band. I have asked Clive if he will post it just to muddy the waters. Stuart

When I first saw this helmet on eBay, via Mike, I thought it an odd shape and this turned out to be due to its being misshapen which Jock remedied when he took delivery. My take was that it was probably a Royal Navy officer's helmet because of the manufacturer/outfitter and its being "misshapen" in the original photos. The lack of a silk attachment to the leather headband and the brown leather edging to the brim added to this but I have no information on RN Dress Regulations. The cover fits the helmet snugly and this is a good sign. Covers with a 1" band were not uncommon, but by far the majority were made without such a band, see later 6 vs. 4 comment, and the photos that I have seen are always of the latter type with the puggaree clearly visible beneath and are ORs. There is a photo, in the Osprey book on the Royal Navy, which shows Naval officers in South Africa 1879-80 wearing blue covers with the 1" band with no puggaree underneath. I am also not convinced that the cover is an ORs' because it is in 6 panels, which is more expensive to produce than a 4 panel one, and is shown in the 1900 DRs for officers only. The WD and, presumably, the RN always had an eye to economy. Puggarees were worn over covers but I doubt that this was a common practice because of the "unneccessary" expense, even for officers. From Jock's photos and commentary I would say that the cover and neck curtain match but I did question the elastic as being in such good condition after 100+ years - actually Mike brought that one up - and, although elastic is not impossible it is most unusual. Perhaps it originally had a drawstring later replaced by elastic but who knows? All over the place here but in summary I would say a RN officers helmet with cover and neck-curtain, with the helmet made prior to the 2nd Boer War and the rest added later for the Boer War. Stuart

Mark, I did send photos of my collection some time ago but no response. I hate that My main contact there is unhappy in her job "I've got a fine arts degree and I work here!" She doesn't bother with me anymore. I got some terrific stuff from the York Castle Museum, enough to make a full chapter in my book on the Wolseley helmet. The Glosters Museum and the Tank Museum were also very helpful, as were the Royal Navy Museum. Cheers, Stuart www.militarysunhelmets.com PS. you are up early!

Here you go - "The Buffs formed part of Colonel Benson's column when it was attacked at Baakenlaagte on 30th October 1901. The rear-guard, which was the object of the enemy's main attack, was composed of two companies of Mounted Infantry, two squadrons Scottish Horse..." This is from Our Regiments in South Africa by John Stirling. The 13th Brigade consisted of 2nd Buffs, 2nd Glosters, 1st West Riding and 1st Oxford L.I. Stuart

Thanks Mark. Initially I limited my collection to full dress i.e. the beginning of WWI but recently went into sun helmets - wicker, Colonial pattern, Wolseley pattern, Khaki Solar Pith Hats and Bombay Bowlers. The start point was meant to be early 19th century but the 1768 pattern bearskin mitre extended that. I have had mixed success with the NAM and find it quite difficult to get anything out of them. I would be surprised if their collections were not larger and better than mine. Cheers, Stuart www.militarysunhelmets.com

OK, back to post #22. The soldier in the foreground could be the East Kent (Buffs) but the flash is too indistinct for me to tell. However, the other soldier showing a flash which I think (thought?) was the Duke of Wellington's Regiment would, if DOW is correct, gel with the Buffs as they both formed part of the 13th Brigade under Lt-Gen. C.E. Knox. This brigade formed part of the VIth Division under General Kelly-Kenny. The 2nd Buffs sailed on the Gaika on 22nd December, 1899 and arrived at the Cape on 13th January, 1900. The 1st West Riding (DOW's) sailed on the Orient on 30th December, 1899 and arrived at the Cape on 21st January 1900. All a bit tenuous I know... Stuart

Paul, congratulations, you finally got a nice one! I can see the outline of the QVC of the helmet and one must wonder why the Aldershot Tattoo people applied such a plate to a 1912 helmet. Maybe it was for a re-enactment of some Victorian episode. If anyone knows about the Aldershot Tattoos I wish they would start a thread because the subject is a mystery to me, and others I suspect. Cheers, Stuart

Leigh, yes that is the complete serial number. Thanks for looking it up. His being a private makes the velvet backed chinchain suspect, but it may have been added by The Aldershot Tattoo people. Stuart

Leigh, that was the book from which I took the quote but further reading came up with figure F6 which is simply described as "5th Division". Looks green and yellow to me. This lack of further explanation on F6 does not neccessarily negate his earlier statement and I think I saw the comment you mention somewhere but predictably cannot find it. So, the 5th Division had a divisional sign but was it worn on uniforms/headgear or only on vehicles? Stuart

The King's Liverpool arrived today and this interior shot shows two broad arrows facing each other. This indicates Out of Service. It was also the property of the Aldershot Tattoo at some stage but all of the furniture matches. The chinchain has black velvet backing so this helmet was perhaps worn by a senior NCO. It was manufactured in 1910 by Everitt and Vero of East Dulwich Road, London.

According to Mike Chappell, the 5th (Regular) Division included New Army Battalions which "brought a scheme of battle patches with them from their previous division, but these lapsed in the 5th Division, where no battle insignia were worn." The 14th Hussars wore a rectangular patch dividided diagonally blue/yellow prior to amalgamation with the 20th Hussars in 1922. And Guido Rosignoli gives the 5th Division as a "Y" on a green background post 1939. I saw the website where you got the insignia and it does say WWI. Where to from here? Stuart

Well I got a reply from the Royal Navy Museum However, it still leaves the question of my Royal Naval Division Wolseley open. Stuart Dear Sir Thank you for your enquiry. The Royal Naval Division transferred from the authority of the Admiralty to the War Office on 29 April 1916 (Authority.- 79/8954 (S.D.2.) d/d. 29/04/16) and in May they changed their naval uniform for for army dress. I have not found anything in our sources on the RND that indicates their army dress had any variation to that issued to regular troops. There was a publicised dislike of the naval divisions by General Shute, who took command of them in October 1916 and it is unlikely he would have encouraged anything that further highlighted the difference between them and the other army units. It is possible that this item was issued while the brigade was briefly under Major General Paris or the army clothing department passed this unusual variant in haste, although this also seems unlikely. I wish we could be of more assistance on this occasion but wish you luck with any further research on this.

Gordon, what a wonderful example of shipbuilding! It reminds me of a TV filler way back in the late 1950s which featured a radio controlled British 6" cruiser, with firing guns to boot Some years ago I built a 3 foot version of PT109. One had to construct the hull upside down and I can well remember the hours spent fitting and shaping the side planks. And the endless sanding. Unfortunately I was talked into getting a "hot" motor for it and not only did that require modifications, the heavy duty battery meant that the transom was almost underwater. I still have it and fantasize about putting it in my dam and letting rip with my shotgun. But after removing the RC stuff of course. Stuart

This is my first Other Ranks blue cloth. As said earlier, and on the thread Home Service Helmet, I bought this one because I knew it would go cheaply on eBay and I wanted one to know what I was talking about. I pointed out to the seller that the helmet plate was an RMLI one and that they had discontinued the BC in 1905 whereas this helmet has a WD stamp of 1907. He obligingly updated his description. I have exchanged the plate for a Hampshire one, but am not at all sure why, as I would never pass it off as other than what it was when I found it. Nevertheless it is in my collection. Stuart

Mike, for god's sake stay vertical I had to get another ORs blue cloth, i.e. a good one, since I cocked-up badly on another thread because I assumed that ORs' helmets would be the same as officers'. Not so There is a "nice" officers' BC locally available but it has an ORs' helmet plate, damn it. I have cast around for a replacement plate but they are almost as expensive as a proper helmet. Besides I don't muck around with my stuff. That is excepting the first ORs BC I recently bought with a RMLI plate. The marines discontinued the BC in 1905 and the helmet has a WD stamp of 1907, but I knew this before buying. I needed to get an example to know what I was talking about. Apart from Wilkinson-Latham's booklet on the Blue Cloth I am not aware of any other publication on the subject and that publication is light on, to say the least, when it comes to the ORs version. Stuart

Hello Damian, I have not heard of British Museum Leather Dressing, but will look it up. Have you any experience with it? BTW: a belated welcome to the forum Stuart PS: Bootsie?

So far not a sausage from the RN museum. Should I offer money ? Anyway have just added another ORs' blue cloth to the collection - King's Liverpool -

This doesn't add much but here is a busby to the 20th Hussars -

Thanks Mike, I was thinking more of your common barnyard fowl. I have also encountered multiple post problems. I think it may occur when I have previewed the post and then scrolled down to look at previous posts and then going to a previous page. But I can't be sure. I generally use Firefox but it sometimes does not perform correctly e.g. my profile photo is not shown and the profile menu is continuously displayed, in fact it is happening now. I don't know whether that is a contributing factor. We can't delete a post but have to ask a moderator or the chairman to do that. Stuart

Mike, I know about swans' feathers being the province of the Queen in certain areas of the Thames, and species of swan, but did not know that a cock was protected A photo taken in 1901 shows officers with a plain khaki puggaree and sergeants with the leather band. From this book, Uniforms of the British Yeomanry Force 1794 - 1914 by L. Barlow & R.J. Smith it appears that from 1903, to the centre of the puggaree for officers was a tartan of "green Murray Atholl" and for the other ranks a yellow cloth was used. The authors state that the slouch hat was used for full dress until 1914. They include a photo of NCOs and ORs wearing the Atholl Grey Full Dress including the slouch hat with yellow folds and cocks' feathers taken in 1912. Please start a thread on the Scottish Horse such that all of this information can be gathered in one place. Stuart

The colours of red with vertical blue stripes reminds me of the helmet flash of the Royal Engineers which was introduced late 1902. Stuart