GREAKLY

Rick, thank you very much for your informative reply. From the ribbon of Russian medal (St.Stanilaus) I can tell for sure that this was a soldier, not an NCO. An NCO would have gotten the medal on St. Anne ribbon. At least that was the case with Britts receiving Russian medals on a number of occasions. The backing on the medal bar is red, the China medal is bronze, combatant type. Pictures of both sides of the bar are attached. What do you think? Also could you please tell why Crown order medal was a "signature" of Naval personnel? If this was a Naval soldier (for sure not an NCO) or some civilian who actively participated in the conflict in China in 1901 and who did not get any gallantry medals for those actions (that at least eliminates 665 recipents of Milit?rehrenzeichen 2nd Class) does this bring the search to a managable number of possible awardees? Thanks again.

Gentlemen, Thank you for the information. Rick, I do not think this particular group is a "red herring". I am aware of a number of German groups (as late as Third Reich) with various Imperial Russian awards. However, they mostly went to "ground" units personnel, where Russian Czars were cheffing. The only few occasions that I know of when Russian awards were given to German NAVAL personnel (besides China) were during "fleet visits" 1906-1908. I have a picture of German sailor wearing medal bar with Prussian long service medal, Luitpold medal and Russian Zeal medal. But that one clearly dates post-1905. Heiko, why do you think the bar belonged to some NAVAL soldier? I mean, it's been my understanding that Crown Order medal was reserved mostly for non-military personnel and mostly for state servants from other countries. Am I right? Do you have any documents/articles/etc. about Russians giving Germans medals in 1901 China? I mean, any other information but medal bars? Have you seen any other German bars from 1901 China with any foreign decorations? I wish there was a list of all those awarded with Crown Order medal, so that I could cross reference it with the list of those awarded with Russian orders and medals in 1901 China and quickly find my awardee...

Gentlemen, I have originally posted this in the Imperial German section of the forum, but I figured not all might read it. I recently purchased pre-WWI German medal bar (Medal of the Order of Prossian Crown, 1900-1901 China medal, 1898 Kaiser Wilhelm Centeniary medal and Russian Zeal medal (Nicholas 2nd era)). The bar is original is every respect, so the question is: how did this German soldier (or an NCO at the most) got the Russian medal? The presence of the China medal sort of gives me an idea. There were about 50 German soldiers participating in the legations defense in Pekin and another 800-900 took part in the relief expedition. Does anybody know if any of those soldiers got Russian (or any other country's, besides their own) medals for these events? On a broader scale, does anybody know about any "international medal exchange" taking place in China in 1901? I mean, any country giving its medals to armed forces personnel (or civilians) of another country in connection with the Boxer rebellion. There is surprisingly little information about that in books and on the web. For the event that took place just 7 years after China (Italian Earthquake 1908) I've seen not only British, German and Russian medal bars/groups with "Messina" medal but also a lot of documents (at least Italian, Russian and British) covering the distribution of those medals. But almost nothing on this matter on 1901 China... Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Gentlemen, I recently purchased pre-WWI German medal bar (Medal of the Order of Prossian Crown, 1900-1901 China medal, 1898 Kaiser Wilhelm Centeniary medal and Russian Zeal medal (Nicholas 2nd era)). The bar is original is every respect, so the question is: how did this German soldier (or an NCO at the most) got the Russian medal? The presence of the China medal sort of gives me an idea. There were about 50 German soldiers participating in the legations defense in Pekin and another 800-900 took part in the relief expedition. Does anybody know if any of those soldiers got Russian (or any other country's, besides their own) medals for these events? You see, if this was the case with Britts everything would have been much more simple. Firstl, the medal(s) most likely would have been named, which would have made the research much easier. Also in order to be able to wear any foreign decoration the permission has to be granted (and subsequently published in the London Gazette) to the awardee by the king. Was that the case in Germany in early 20th Century? Could the soldier just wear any foreign medal or he needed some sort of permission? If so, would it be published somewhere? Does anybody have any information on Germans getting any foreign medals in China in 1901? On a broader scale, does anybody know about any "international medal exchange" taking place in China in 1901? I mean, any country giving its medals to armed forces personnel (or civilians) of another country in connection with the Boxer rebellion. There is surprisingly little information about that in books and on the web. For the event that took place just 7 years after China (Italian Earthquake 1908) I've seen not only British, German and Russian medal bars/groups with "Messina" medal but also a lot of documents (at least Italian, Russian and British) covering the distribution of those medals. But almost nothing on this matter on 1901 China... Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Russians only put up the pressure BEFORE the event. Once the auction happens they stop all the contacts and act as if it never existed. If the auction yields to their demands they try to air that fact inside the country as loud and as long as possible. They make sure that public in Russia only hears about successful attempts. The reason for all this BS is simple: 2007 happens to be in election year in Russia, so it all is just politics and PR...

Excellent point, Rick. Someone in YOUR government has made a few extra "political" points from MoH sale ban. Someone is making them as we speak from all the "Stolen Valor" non-sense. Russia just simply joins the club...

Rick, I do not see how posting of the 1980 letter helps. You see, since late 1970-ties Soviet/Russian government does no longer challenge the ownership/inheritance issue of orders and medals. After the death of the original recipient all families are allowed to keep all orders and medals (not just OGPWs) but are expected to pass them through generations in the "father to the sun" style. On the other hand, the awardee's families (in RUSSIA) are not allowed neither to sell the medals (it's still a crime) nor to take them out of the country without government permission (the original recipient, actually, can do that as long as he carries the award booklet with him). So Russian logic in the Sotheby's-UBS-MedalHouse case is: if the medals turned up outside of the coutry (and the authorities have no record of any export licence) then, all the medals have been exported illegally and need to be returned. In my opinion, the key issue in this case is that Russia some wants to claim exclusive "ownership" (so to speak) or "jurisdiction" over any Soviet order and medal that turns up pretty much anywhere in the world. When, in fact, when Soviet Union broke up all the Soviet ODMs that were present in a certain ex-Soviet republic became the "property" (again, so to speak) of that republic and were governed by the laws of that republic. Given, that population of Soviet Union in 1991 was close to 300,000,000 and Russia's population now is just over 140,000,000 roughly means that every other medal you see on the market DOES NOT originate from Russia (theory of probability). And in many ex-Soviet republics not only it is legal to sell and/or export these items but, in fact, such actions are highly appreciated. Estonian parlament just voted to demolish the 1945 monument to the Soviet soldier at Tallinn military cemetery. Do you think they care about Soviet medals? Sure. In a way: the more are gone, the better it is... It all would come down to tracing the history and whereabouts of EVERY order/medal (and, of course, its owner) from the moment it was issued till present. Which is an a suicidal task. It might be possible in case with Ushakov 1-st (a handful of recipients, all being well-known guys from high places) but it's absollutely dead-end in a case of little-man medal. Most of you at this forum have ordered/done some research and know what a hard task it is even to determine the awardee. Now imagine the task ten times bigger: all awardee's life (and life of his/her heirs) and momements should be traced in a way who/what went where and when. Absolutely pointless task anyway, as, at the end, all the family has to say that grandpa died a while ago and they have no idea where he put his medals... The explanation of such sudden interest to Soviet ODMs is, actually, quite simple. It just happens to be an election year in Russia. So every public serwant is trying to make as much fuzz as possible to prove his usefullness to the Motherland. In addition to that the government Agency behind this witch hunt has just been merged with another one. Half of the people down there or so are likely to loose their jobs. So the FUZZ issue just turned into matter of survival. Politics...

Gerd, Regarding Lot 290. The explanation is very simple. The awardee must have been a Baltic-German or some Baltic (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia) national. During WWI he fought in the German Army and received EKII. After the end of the war he must have joined the FreiCorps and fought in the Baltics together with White Russians (North Western Army) against Reds. The "Baltic Landwehr Cross" (some sort of local militia volunteer unit) suggests that the awardee most likely somehow originated from the area and fought there for some time. Baltic Landwehr was partially made of Russians and, partially, of locals and some Germans. They fought mainly Reds and, to some extend, Brttis. A number of cases are known when the command of the Russian side of this unit was giving the awards (often just award documents as they ran out of medals quite fast) to the "allies" (Germans/Balts). In this case the St.Stanislas is of the type made in Berlin in 1920-ties, which is another "plus". After the whole thing the awardee must have stayed in Germany (he could be one of those MEMEL Germans), received H-Burg Cross and, later, served in the Wehrmacht and received the Long Service piece. There is a gentleman in germany who works on the book about FreiCorps medals. I believe he has a similar medal bar. Also a number of German FreiCorps medal bars has been seen with Russian St.George cross. One, I believe, was pictured on the cover of the BDOS magazine a few years ago. So cases of German medal bars with Russian awards are rare but not unknown.

Gentlemen, I had a pleasure to view the letter from the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet that accompanies the above-mentioned Nevsky. Here is the story: The original owner died sometime in 1979-1980. His son wanted to keep the order but couldn't find the original booklet. So he wrote the request to the PVS asking to send him a copy of the document so that he could legally keep the piece. The official PVS response letter (in original PVS envelope) comes for sale together with the documented Nevsky (but, unfortunately, was not pictured due to the lack of space). The letter dated 1980 is addressed to awardee's sun, confirms that his father was awarded with the piece in question and gives him permission to keep the piece. The booklet you saw on the picture is also mentioned in that letter as "sent alongside". So, basically, it's a later-type duplicate booklet issued in 1980 for 1942-type Nevsky and given to awardee's sun so that he can legally keep his father's award. As a part of the package comes the original PVS envelope with postal stamps and etc. This whole set actually tells a lot about how the Soviet system worked when replacing awards/documents.

Gentelmen, And now my 5 kopeks. I tend to believe that the photo is legit, because I agree with Dave's loigc. Without having the research done there was no way the faker would have known guy's age. Given that 1967 was the 50-th anniversary of the revolution year the picture of an old dude (BTW, as a many of you know A LOT of old dueds got various medals that and the next (1968) year) would have been a more logical choice. But given the price of the medal, all the in-depth "material" research (snowflakes, glossy picture, etc.) is a bit ... TOO in-depth. In Russia we have a good proverb: "Don't use a cannon to hunt sparrows". If this was a HSU, Glory cavalier or anything that's worth over a few hundred $$$ than such approach would be appropriate. But a $40 medal??? It's not worth to fake the picture. Even if German collectors don't like it that way, there are still plenty of other people around. And even if someone wanted to add the picture there was no way to figure out the appropriate age. What I do believe though is that the seal might be fake. I mean, some idiot-dealer got perfectly original booklet but decided to add the seal to make the picture look more "offical". That would not require any research or investment (many dealers have the PSS seals handy :-). Also given the age and appearance of the guy the dealer could have simply thought the picture was bad in the first place and wanted to "officialize" it. As to why this youngster got the medal (aside from what the citation says), there is also a logical explanation. 1967 was the year of huge war game (read Suvurov "The liberator"), after which many medals were issued. As you all know Soviet planning system, there would be a certain number of awards pre-assigned to each unit. Ryazan VDV College is certainly an elite place (ask Paul Schmitt :-), so they must have gotten a few of those. And it would be "politically appropriate" (love that Soviet newspeak :-) to give one or two "small" (like MM) medals to the best cadets. So, here comes our guy. 22 jumps after 2-nd year in "Uchilische" that's a pretty good score. But I also wouldn't be surprised if he had family members in high places :-) Gregory

Gentlemen, Let me add my 5 kopeks. I think this group should be checked both with PMD and through the archival research. Paul will provide you the "Cavalier's card", while archival research will most likely yield the "Uchetnaya kartochka". Once those two documents are available any mistakes, inconsistances and etc. will most likely be uncovered and clarified (an exchange of medals always leaves paper trail). And $100 paid for those two documents is more than fair price to confirm (or NOT confirm) the originality of the $14K+ group.