speedytop

Hi Rick, "My suggestion: change to german sport badges 1948 - 1952, before the sport badge DSB. You can find there sport badges with DSA, BSA, LSA and SLA. And sport badges DRL without swastika." At the same time, when the DRL without swastika werde made, you could find in reality several other sport badges. Here are the minis: Deutsches Sportabzeichen DSA (1948 - 1952) Landes-Sportabzeichen LSA (1949 - 1952) Bundes-Sportabzeichen BSA (1949 - 1952) Sport-Leistungs-Abzeichen SLA (Bavaria 1949 - 2007) Deutsches Sportabzeichen DSB (1952 - 2006) Regards Uwe

My Gau badge Ostannover. I don't think, that it is only a tinnie. Regards Uwe

Hi Rick, this document is from Mai 1935. The earliest DRL award document booklet I have seen in the CARL-Diem-Archiv ist dated 4.35, April 1935. "I am retreating back into the World of DRA, where only street addresses matter." My suggestion: change to german sport badges 1948 - 1952, before the sport badge DSB. You can find there sport badges with DSA, BSA, LSA and SLA. And sport badges DRL without swastika. Regards Uwe

Award document booklet (small version for repetitions, 4 pages) for Silber, printed December 1933 (12.33.), in-box 30.11.1938: Award Silber 21.01.1939, stuck into the award document booklet for Bronze: Regards Uwe

"When DID a DRL with swastika REPLACE the DRA?" The text in a book, written 1988 by experts (J?rgen Buschmann and Karl Lennartz) from the "Carl-Diem-Archiv an der Deutschen Sporthochschule K?ln", book title "75 Jahre Deutsches Sportabzeichen", page 60: "Die Initialen wurden erst 1935 von DRA (Deutscher Reichsausschu?) in DRL (Deutscher Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen) ge?ndert. Auf der Bandschleife wurde ein Hakenkreuz angebracht." Rough translation: Changing the initials from DRA to DRL in 1935 and placing a swastika on the loop. Look for Karl Lennartz and J?rgen Buschmann: http://www.google.de/search?q=%22Karl+Lenn...;client=firefox Chances are that several DRA badges were given in 1935, to use up the rest. But in 1935 the first badges DRL with swastika were given, definitely. The award documents DRA were used several years later, similarly to use up the rest, especially the documents for repetition. One example for one man: Award document booklet for Bronze, printed in May 1934 (bottom 5.34.) Award Bronze 21.12.1934:

DRL Wernstein Jena D.R.G.M 35269: Regards Uwe

DRA Wernstein Jena-L?bstedt D.R.G.M 35269:

Hi Rick, "and when was Number 35269 registered for the DRL with swastika design?" I don't know, but that is irrelevant. This number 35269 changed from 33918 in the era of the DRA badges. DRA Wernstein Jena-L?bstedt D.R.G.M 33918:

Hi Rick, I'm not alone with that opinion. J?rg Nimmergut deleted the price rating for this badges some years before. I recognized that after my first doubts. This is the fourth forum, where I post it. Nobody could present a primary source out of this time, with a reference to a badge DRL without swastika. Regards Uwe

Hi Hardy, out of post 12: " I have searched in several folders in the Carl-Diem-Archiv, in many hundred documents in the era 1934, 1935 and later. No document with a note for a DRL without the swastika! I have searched in books, in newspapers, in encyclopedias, in codes of law and other publications. Not at any time I found a hint for the contemporary existence of the DRL badge without the swastika in the time between 1933 and 1945." And I have several german lexicons and hundreds of books from this time. The Carl-Diem-Archiv in Cologne is the central place for documents about sport, sport badges and award documents in Germany. Regards Uwe

Hi Darrell, "Until someone shows me "hard" evidence that they are post '45 I'm a believer." It is not a problem, to show you a sales catalouge out of the 50's/60's, where you can find these badges, with and without the tip. Both in one catalogue. But I think, that is the wrong way. I cannot prove things, which never existed. But if you are a believer, then show me "hard" evidence, that they are pre 1945. Why are all these badges without maker marks?? Do you think, Wernstein, Lauer, Wagner, Kohm, Petz & Lorenz and others are not interested, to show their name? Why that? Do you really think, that the award documents show the swastika, and the badges not? Why? Much more than 100,000 awards in the years 1935 thru 1937, and no matching award document? Why? No picture for much more than 100,000 awards? Why? Regards Uwe

Hi. we must make a distinction between the sport organization, the responsible organization for the awards and the name of the sports badge. 1933: Deutscher Reichsausschuss f?r Leibes?bungen (DRA) Deutsches Turn- und Sportabzeichen, Auszeichnung des Deutschen Reichsausschusses (DRA) 1934: Deutscher Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL) Deutsches Reichs-Sportabzeichen, Auszeichnung des Deutschen Reichsbundes f?r Leibes?bungen (DRA) 1935: Deutscher Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL) Deutsches Reichs-Sportabzeichen, Auszeichnung des Deutschen Reichsbundes f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL with swastika) 1936: Reichssportamt, Deutscher Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL) Reichs-Sportabzeichen, Auszeichnung des Deutschen Reichsbundes f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL with swastika) 1937: Reichssportamt, Deutscher Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL) Reichssportabzeichen, Deutsche Reichsauszeichnung f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL with swastika) 1938: Reichssportamt, Nazionalsozialistischer Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen (NSRL) Reichssportabzeichen, Deutsche Reichsauszeichnung f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL with swastika) Regards Uwe

Hi Peter, "...with little or nothing in response..." there are some new posts: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...8399&page=2 post 24 thru 26, very interesting! Hi Rick, I'm sorry, but there is something incorrect. It is difficult, to find exact official figures for awards of the sports badges. This is one of my statements on WAF: Approxiamately 480 000 DRA badges for men and women had been awarded. Approxiamately 1 000 000 DRL badges with swastika for men and women had been awarded. Exact 0 DRL badges without a swastika had been awarded. And this is another statement: Statement of a member: " ?All reference books, German or English, regardless of how badly they mangle the actual requirements, know and show that. ? Uwe: Let us throw a look at some of these books: Littlejohn/Dodkins 1970: ? The version with D.R.A. was the first type, this was superseeded by the D.R.L. without a swastika type which in 1937 was succeeded by the last and most common type, the D.R.L. with a swastika.? The picture on page 85 show the DRL w/o swastika, but with the ?tip?. That is wrong twice; no change in 1937, the picture shows a post war version. Klietmann 1971, vol. 1 and 2.: Page 290: It is wrong, that the DRL w/o swastika have maker marks HENSLER, WERNSTEIN and WAGNER, that is only for DRL with swastika. The picture in vol. 2 shows a post war version. Angolia 1978, vol. 2: Twice a wrong statement: The document shown on page 236 in the above described book is produced in 1935, exactly in Juli 1935. You can see it, in the footnote bottom left: 5000. 7. 35. 45. 5000 (the correct number is irrelevant, it could be 8000) paper documents had been produced in July 1935, and I think, that 45. stands for the producer, but that is irrelevant too. The first document with DRL I found in the Carl-Diem-Archive in Cologne is marked: 10000 4. 35. 13., produced in April 1935, naturally with the swastika. The last documents with DRA I found, in my own collection and in the Carl-Diem-Archive, are marked 3000. 9. 34. 71 (for women) and 20000. 8. 34. 63. (for men). The end for DRA documents in September 1934. And now anyone must declare me, in the perfect organized german state, how it is possible, to have thousands and thousands of badges, but no matching document? I have searched in several folders in the Carl-Diem-Archiv, in many hundred documents in the era 1934, 1935 and later. No document with a note for a DRL without the swastika! I have searched in books, in newspapers, in encyclopedias, in codes of law and other publications. Not at any time I found a hint for the contemporary existence of the DRL badge without the swastika in the time between 1933 and 1945. Since 1935 you can find original awarded DRA documents with awarded DRL badges with swastika, the old documents were used up several years. The name of the badge changed 1934 from "Deutsches Turn- und Sportabzeichen" into "Deutsches Reichs-Sportabzeichen", later on it changed to "Reichssportabzeichen". At first DRL stand for "Deutscher Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen", later on it changed (1937) to "Deutsche Reichsauszeichnung f?r Leibes?bungen". Forman?s 1988: Page 188: ? D.R.A. Sports Badges c. 1933 (Deutsches Reichsabzeichen f?r Leibes?bungen)? Both is wrong, it changed 1934/1935, and the name of the badge changed 1934 from "Deutsches Turn- und Sportabzeichen" into "Deutsches Reichs-Sportabzeichen". The picture Nr. 226 shows a post war version. Klietmann 1990 ?Staatlich-zivile Auszeichnungen?: The same wrong picture with the DRL w/o swastika on page 97, picture description idiotic (sorry); ?Deutsches Turn- und Sportabzeichen ? DRL in der Ausf?hrung von 1919.? 1919 !!!!!! No dates of changing the versions, why not? I think, he did not know it. Niemann (Detlev) 2004: The picture on page 353 shows a post war version. Cloth versions ?? I have never seen one, and if it exists, it is post war. Entry in the Award Booklet ?? I have never seen one, never! Kind regards Uwe

Hi Darrell, I think, this is the wrong section, because these badges are made post WWII, and not 1934 thru 1937. Regards Uwe

Hi, last night I bought another badge in Silver with 31 (20.50 Euro) And few days ago nobody want to buy a badge in Gold with 31, start price 40 Euros Rick, that is DRA in Gold, made by Mack & Purbs: Please wait some days, and I will show you more pictures 81 and 31. Regards Uwe

Hi Hardy, your DRA mini looks like a post WWII (!) production. Never before I saw such an example! The bottom loop is very small. On the picture you can see two of my minis, both with maker mark Lauer. It could be, that my second piece is a post WWII production too? The first: GES. GESCH?TZT Nr. 34815 L. CHR. LAUER N?RNBERG BERLIN SW.68 The second: LAUER N?RNBERG Regards Uwe

Hi Hardy, thank you for posting the pictures. What is on the reverse of your mini? A makers name? Hi Rick, hi Darrell, amazing, but first let us talk about DRL without swastika, the sports badge post WWII !? Please, look at my last post: 31 could be 1913/1914, but it could be 1921/1922 too. I don't know the exact changing dates from street number 31 to 81 and back to 31. And I don't know the exact changing date from Hofjuwelier to Juwelier. And nobody can say, when Mack & Purbs, Wernstein and Lauer started with their badges. The mini started 1921, in my collection is one mini made by Marcus. The clothing version started later, after 1924 (but I don't know, when). In documents from 1929 you can find it (Tuchabzeichen), but I have no documents from 1925 to 1928. Enclosed is a very special cloth version, 84mm x 110mm. My both badges with 31 in Bronce and Gold are made with the same tools/dies, but the badge in Silver is different in design, and especially the obverse it is more corresponding to 4 of my badges with 81. It could be, that the badge in Silver is basically a post WWI production, that there was no production of this badge pre WWI, because the first year, that it could be awarded, is 1916 (based on the start in 1913). But it could be too, that Marcus started with all the 3 badges in Bronce, Silver and Gold in 1913. It is probably understanding, that there were some more badges in Gold than the awarded 108. In the next months/years I will try to collect more informations about DRA badges on different places in germany. Regards Uwe

On the three badges shown before you can see the house number 81. In the directories of Berlin you can find the Hofjuwelier Eugen Marcus: 1913 and 1914 till 1917:Unter den Linden 31 1918 and 1919 till 1921: Unter den Linden 81 The problem is, that you can find later on once more: Unter den Linden 31, definetily since 1922. Therefore i can't say, house number 31 is pre WWI. But I can say, house number 81 ist post WWI. By the way, in this directories stands Hofjuwelier, till 1922, than only Juwelier. These are 8 Eugen Marcus badges: - the first three, in Bronce Silver and Gold, with house number 31, 2 different types - the last five, 3 in Bronce an 2 in Gold, with house number 81, 2 different types Summarised: 4 different types. Regards Uwe

I think, that the 3 Eugen Marcus sport badges shown here from Darrell, Rick and Hardy are post WWI pieces. Regards Uwe

Hi, there are a few errors in this thread. 1. "The conditions for the original bronze and gold types of 1913-14 remain a mystery." Everybody must fulfill 5 requirements (only men): - swimming 300m - high jump or long jump - running 100m, 400m or 1500m - different competions to choose: javelin or shotput or discus etc. - running 10000m or swimming 1000m etc. No award for a function. 2. "There was no silver grade before 1919." In German we say Jein, it is not yes and it is not no. In the deed of foundation in 1913 all three grades were designed. But for the silver badge you must fulfill the 5 exercises in 4 years. And there were only 2 years, 1913 and 1914. 3. "Here is a document for a 1929 Gold, earned, at that time, for a total of 8 years, and not at all connected with the recipient's age:" The document is correct and it is connected with the recipients age. It is the first repetition document for Gold, not the award document for Gold. It is the 8. repetion overall, and the 1. repetition for Gold, that he can get 7 years later. And the bestowal number for this repetition document was 35473. 4. Rick, your sports badge in Gold, made by Eugen Marcus, marked 900 silver and gilded, is absolutely marvelous. It could be an unique piece. But I think, it is not pre WWI, and I think, it is not an awarded piece. Regards Uwe I beg your pardon for my bad English

And this is the reverse, marked L 12 und 800. The needle is marked with 4. Regards Uwe I beg your pardon for my bad English

That is the case, you can see the same in the Museum.

This is a badge shown here first out of the Imperial War Museum, differently coloured. It is a copy.

The third bar is a mixture of paper and cloth. On the sixth place is the USSR "Brotherhood in Arms Medal" in cloth, a part of a miniature ribbon. I think, that the most NVA paper bars on ebay are fakes, new arranged. Regards Uwe

Here are some bars of a political officer of the NVA, latest rank Major General. The first bar with the metal edges. The second bar as a normal version.