Komtur

VERY instructive again There is a bar with few decorations and there is a person known, who fits after research only in some of his decorations, while some others are missing on the bar. With the single decorations, obviously belonging to the group, there is proof enough, that it is the orderbar of Rechnungsrat Sa?. After 1918 there often seems to be no more interest to complete a bar with the late war or after the war decorations for proud wearing. Instead of that, they where thrown in the drawer with all the memory and the past times Thanks, Komtur.

First: As I stated before, I fully agree with that point of view. Second: Thanks for this additional information. Where does it come from? When did Seldte got the HOH Komtur (or Komthur or Comthur ). If there is a picture with him and this order, could you please post it here? Thanks, Komtur.

Indeed Dr. Karl Tellgmann was the son of the Hoffotograf Oscar Tellgmann, one of the famous Tellgmann brothers. I found him in the Stammliste der Kaiser Wilhelms-Akademie f?r das milit?r?rztliche Bildungswesen 1910 - a great source for my special interest. Best regards, Komtur.

Please one copy for me too. Thanks, Komtur.

No problem, you are welcome and I am not disturbed at all. It is an intersting point you made. We are here to discuss such questions in a polite manner and I hope that happened also with my limited possibilities in the English language in this thread. The HOH is my FIRST FAVORITE order , so I hope that there will be a few more answers in this thread focussing to its exile awards and the showed groups of orders. Best regards, Komtur.

May be these bells: http://www.dhm.de/magazine/fotografen/tellgmann.html Don?t know if they are related. But the Tellgmann photographer dynasty could have the possibility to bring a poor Stabsarzt cousin near to the Kaiser for medical service. If you have a picture of the Luftwaffe attach? in Japan with this order, could you please show it? BTW I found Tellgmann in the 1924 Reichswehr ranklist:

Hello Mike, I must admit I am not fit in complex legal questions. But who is the chivalric community and wich official international organization or wich state cares about the rules of the International Commission on Orders of Chivalry? "Although not recognised by any international treaty, an organisation exists which seeks to provide criteria against which to judge Orders of Chivalry: the International Commission on Orders of Chivalry" one can read in Wikipedia if you search for chivalry orders. There is a point of view like yours, but "A minority of scholars disagree, arguing that a non-reigning claimant to a throne cannot continue an order of chivalry." is also written there. So at least there is a discussion about it in the community. For my opinion, there is a necessary criteria for the legitimation to award orders and decorations: you have to be a head of a state (or a similar orginaziation with international appreciation) with all its power behind. As I stated in the beginning, I am not an expert in law, that is only my humble opinion. With kind regards, Komtur

And finally an extra for RR Any additional information on that topic or the persons of Remmert and Tellgmann is welcome. Kind regards, Komtur.

Ribbon bar of Dr. Karl Tellgmann

Detail picture of the HOH on Tellgmanns bar

Order bar of Dr. Karl Tellgmann with his "Doorn" HOH knight, same markings as on the Remmert knight

The award document for the knight cross to Oberstabsarzt Dr. Karl Tellgmann, the personal physician of the Kaiser in Doorn before Dr. Remmerts service

Picture from a dutch newspaper with Remmert (third from the left)

Both sides of Remmerts knight cross

Unfortunately without the document, Remmerts knight cross, marked "938" and "JG&S", also in a Godet box, but with earlier logo

Both sides of the cross

Remmerts Komtur cross of the HOH in a case of Godet

The award document for the Komtur of the HOH to the personal physician of the Kaiser in Doorn, Generaloberarzt a. D. Dr. Remmert

The awards of the Royal Prussian House Order of Hohenzollern by Wilhelm II continued after 1918 in his Amerongen and Doorn exile. Strictly spoken these were not real awards of orders, because the Ex-Kaiser had no more official right to honour persons with these decorations. But the Kaiser did not care about that, promoted officers and distributed various titles and orders. Until now there is no roll with these awards known. It could be, that in the Doorn archive are documents about it. Some awards are mentioned in the Ilsemann diary: 6.11.1922 Godard Graf von Aldenburg-Bentinck (Collar of the HOH) 20.8.1924 Ostl. Friedrich Mewes (Komtur HOH) 15.6.1928 Dr. Seibert (Komtur HOH), Graf Conrad von Finckenstein (Komtur HOH) 7.7.1928 Ehrenfried Freiherr von H?nefeld (Star to the Komtur HOH), Hptm. Hermann K?hl (Komtur and Star HOH) 11.9.1930 Prof. Wilhelm D?rpfeld (Star to the Komtur HOH), french pianist Marteaux (Komtur HOH) 28.9.1930 Kapit?nleutnant Wolfgang Gronau (Knight HOH) 29.6.1933 Fregatten-Kpt. Graf Nikolaus zu Dohna-Schlodien (Knight HOH) The award of the HOH Komtur to Joseph von Lauff in the early thirties is known because his order and the document is now in a private collection. For these awards were no documents in the usual manner given, it was only a paper written with the impirial typewriter and singned by the Ex-Kaiser. The decorations of this period are made by Godet in gilded silver. They differ from the pre-1918 crosses and stars of Godet. The pilots K?hl, Fitzmaurice and Freiherr von H?nefeld (left to right) with the Kaiser in Doorn, K?hl and H?nefeld with the just awarded HOH?s:

On principle that was possible. But the commemorative ribbon was given only for service in the Franco-Prussian war after 1871 for the KO3/4 (and the General Honour Decoration) with or without the Red Cross. To be about 35 years without decoration of any other Prussian order and on the other hand be near enough to the court and the persons of Kaiser and Kaiserin to get the 1906-badge is very unlikely. Not impossible! If your badge is original - a very rare bird Kind regards, Komtur.

The award documents had NO information about the ribbon to be used by the person awarded with this badge. The document to Major Friedrich von Dehn-Rotfelser:

As far as I know, there were no awards on the Livesaving Medal ribbon. This decoration was handed out on the ribbon of the the last awarded Prussian order. There was only one exception: the ribbon of the "Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen" for the veterans of the 2. Kompanie 1. Garde-Rgt. zu Fu?, Wilhelm commanded as prince 25 years before. Very similar to the ribbon of the Livesaving Medal is the ribbon of the grandcross of the Red Eagle Order. May be it is this one on your bagde. On the other hand there are copies around, I would be careful. Best regards, Komtur.

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Unfortunately on that one the three pins the badge is fixed with on the ribbon are broken. Some stupid person replaced it with glue. But now we can see it from reverse too. It is minted of two separate parts, the XXV and the wreath. Note the remains of the three pins on the back and the hole of these pins on the ribbon.