Komtur

1881

:speechless:

On that possition must be a German one - but I havn?t a clue Viele Gr??e, Komtur.

It looks as there is the Aesculapian staff on his epaulette. Also because of his three red cross decoratians (Prussian, Austrian, Turkish) it seems to be an Oberstabsarzt? Best regards, Komtur.

This poor fellow got NO German order but three from the allies: Turkish Medjidjie 3rd class, Austrian Franz Joseph knight (with or without war decoration?) and Bulgarian Military Merit Order 5th class with war decoration.

OK, to reactivate the discussion on that bar my thougts about it: As some first comments showed, at first glance the bar looks fine and made in the late imperial period or between the wars. Uncommon is the use of ribbons with different width: the ribbons of the EK2, the HOH knight and the Centenary medal are the normal ribbons, the others are ribbons in miniatur width. IMO that is unusual but not a 100% bad sign. Under UV-light the ribbon of the HOH is shining. As far as I know, that is worse. This glowing of material under UV is a physical reaction known as fluorescence. It can happen with natural and synthetic material. There are some old ribbons often shining under UV as the ribbon of the Bavarian St. Michael Order. But on these old ribbons the colour (often pink and yellow) is glowing. If white is shining under UV it is suspect of the use of an chemical substance called Blankophor - developed in the 50ies in Germany to make white paper and cloth more shiny and since then widely used. The HOH is no doubt not an oficially awarded order. That level of quality would never have passed the Prussian General-Ordenskommission. It is made of Bronce gild, another sign, that this cross is not the official version, wich should be of gold or silver gilded and marked. If it is a cross by Steinauer & L?ck after 1945, the whole bar is a modern fake, because after 1945 there was no use for such an bar for any person decorated with these awards (if that person was still alive). So, what we have here? An original bar before 1918? - Unlikely. A bar between the wars? - Possible with an HOH knight awarded before 1918 (but a second item and not with the original awarded order on the bar) or possible with an exile decoration of the Ex-Kaiser in Doorn (there was no more General-Ordenskommission and always a lack of money, so cheap and bad quality in that time is known) A modern fake? - Possible (see above the glowing ribbon and a Steinauer&L?ck HOH) What do you think? Best regards, Komtur.

I?m afraid you are confused by the different pictures: post 7 - the HOH on my bar post 10 - HOH (I think gold) on another bar from Seeheld post13 - comparison of close-ups of the HOH on my bar (left pic) and a gold single HOH (right pic) The HOH on my bar is of bronze gild. Unfortunately of bad quality. Regards, Komtur.

Do you have any proof for that? What about exile awards after 1918 in Doorn? Best regards, Komtur.

Close-up of the HOH from the bar and another one. Who is who I am afraid, you will know.

Unfortunately not - there are no hallmarks A close-up of the center:

1. EK2 1914 2. Prussian House Order of Hohenzollern Knight 3. Prussian Red Eagle Order 4th class 4. Prussian Crown Order 4th class 5. Red Cross Medal 2nd class 6. Red Cross Medal 3rd class 7. China medal 8. Centenary medal

the back

To avoid prejudice I write by myself no comments to this bar. If you need an information or detailed pics, please ask! Best regards, Komtur.

:cheers:

Ah, sorry, but about that period and its regulations I am not informed enough. But I will try to go back to my initial questions: 1.) Who is the officer on this foto? Thanks to the information of Glenn J and the pictures for comparison of Christophe and Les, it seems to be Oberst d. R. Otto von der Linde before or in WWII. He is wearing a Plm of a type unlike the known awarded crosses of Friedl?nder/Wagner or Godet. I got this foto as an original "paper" one from Ebay. I have not manipulated the scan/digital version in any way. If someone before was messing around with different pics of Lindes face and a pic of a Plm producing the image I bought, I do not know. But there is no reason for me to believe in that possibility. 2.) What we know about this type of Plm? There are at least 2 crosses (Technik-Museum and another one discussed on WAF), wich are quite similar to the cross seen on the picture. We do not know, who was the maker of these 2 crosses and when they were made. Les explained detailed, why he don?t think, that these three crosses are from the same maker or at least there is not enough proof for it. On the other hand Steve desribed, why in his opinion these two orders and the one on the pic of Linde could be one "type". As far as I can follow the discussion in a foreign language, all arguments of both sides did not lead to a 100% safe conclusion. But this is a fact, we have to deal with often in life. Instead of certainty then we must accept a grade of probability. IMHO after that discussion there is a probability that the crosses are from one source. If one believe that, and the foto of Linde is not manipulated, the next conclusion can only be, there was a maker of Plm between the wars producing this type of Plm as a second item for the reciepents and may be for collectors too. If this is probability enough for a collector to pay what ever for such a cross, is a decision, that everyone must make by himself. I would be glad, if there are new informations on this topic to clear the "mine field". But until then, I am sure we can accept the different points of view. With kind regards, Komtur. PS: I regret, that the disussion leds to depressing side tracks Sorry, if I am responsible for that.

I?m afraid for going it is to late. But as I understand you right, it is an interesting point in that discussion. Do you mean for example, an officer, decorated with the Prussian Crown Order 3rd class (before 1916 made of Gold), decided to instruct GODET to produce besides his bar for his uniform with his original orders a second "Frackspange" for his civil cloth and GODET put on this second bar a Crown Order 3rd class in the same kind and style he is officially producing for the Prussian Generalordenskommission? By definition this second and not "awarded" Crown Order for this officer could be seen as a COPY. If we now see this fine GODET tuxedo bar in a collection we will never know that this golden Crown Order is a copy or not, but nobody cares about it! Another possibility of grey between black and white Regards, Komtur.

I am sure, we agree for an original in ALL points. I am also quite sure, there are items we both judge as copies/fakes and will not discuss about. But between black and white there is some grey. If it is not helpful, to make myself clear with that breast star of 1840, I will try it again: here is a GODET 1st class Red Cross Medal. The official maker was the Berliner M?nze. In an article for Orden und Ehrenzeichen (June 55/2008) I showed by letters from the firm, by advertisements of the time and other hints that the GODET cross was made from may be 1898 (the beginning of awards of the Red Cross Medal) until the production of that firm ended (1945). In my opinion 1.) the GODET cross is different made, but of higher quality, then the original awarded crosses by the Berliner M?nze, 2.) GODET crosses were worn by the recipients, before and also after 1921 (when the official awards ended) 3.) some of these crosses may directly were sold by the firm or the heirs of the firm to collectors 4.) these crosses are worth collecting Kind regards, Komtur. pics: 1. GODET 2. Berliner M?nze

One point is the definition of copy/fake. I tried to show, this is sometimes more comlicated, than yours and Daniels point of view. Is the breast star above a copy/fake? In my opinion not. The other point is, when is an order or medal, may we call it copy, fake or something else, worth collecting. Even if some of you would call the breast star above a copy or fake, there will be lots of other collectors nevertheless judging it worth collecting. Regards, Komtur.

Happy New Year to all too It may lead this discussion , but as I am the one starting this thread I do not care to much about it I do not agree with Daniel and Uwe in that point and I try to show you why: this Red Eagle Order breast star of the 2nd class was never official given by the Prussian Generalordenskommission to the recipient. But it is, no doubt about it, a piece made about 1840. In that time all Prussian breast stars were made of cloth. All metall pieces are private purchases. Especially the firm GODET is known for producing these fine jewells of metal work. I have never seen a second piece of that kind, it is one of the favorite orders in my collection and I have no doubt that I could sell it now for twice the money I paid for some years ago (and that was not little). In a way it is not "off topic", because the discussed type of Plm is a fine piece of metal work too, it looks not like other cheap copies. If there are enough hints, that these were worn by the recipients, I would be happy, to have one in my collection, even if it is not "the real thing". Best regards, Komtur.

You are right! I focussed only on the "Ehrenritter" of the Johanniter, mostly with eagles in the style I showed. Searching my archive, I must admit the cross of the "Rechtsritter" (with crown over the cross)and of the "Kommendatoren" (bigger and also with crown) show often the eagle of the Linde-type Plm. Best regards, Komtur.

I do not think, that Linde certainly got a "pie wedge" style Plm. He was awarded this cross on Sept. 18th 1914. The cross of Mackensen, awarded only some weeks later on Nov. 27th 1914, was a "baroque ribbon eye" style too. It is possible an not unusual, that Linde on one of the WWII era pictures is wearing his original awarded order and on the other a second private purchased one. Best regards, Komtur.

Thank you for that interesting study. I can follow you in every step you take, except one: I would not call the eagle of the discussed Plm a "Johanniter type". This eagle is a type of its own. As one can see comparing it with the eagles on a Johanniter cross, you will find lots of differences. The most important one is, that the Johanniter has always a crowned eagle. BTW I never thougt, that the picture of Linde would start that interesting and long standing discussion on that type of Plm. My personal opinion is, that this type are private purchases produced in the years between the wars. I will try to go to the Technik-Museum next time, to find out, who the owner of that Plm there was. Best regards, Komtur.

:love:

Hm, so what about the older officer beeing Rittmeister uncle Heinrich and the younger his nephew Kurt from GdC? Best regards, Komtur.