Veteran

Hello Jan Thank you for this additionnal information which brings further knowledge to this badge. Now that you have mentionned it, "La Bran?onne" makes better sense to me as the Belgian Marseillaise. You have drawn a "fransquillon" closer to Belgian history. I appreciate. Your conclusion that the colours of the ribbon (if it was a ribbon) be a tricolour is supported by an other of you compatriots on a different website; I do hope some one will turn up with a portrait wearing the medal. Very best regards Paul

Thank you, Barry, for this very interesting link. It does seem that this type of medal was worn from a ribbon, the colours of which are difficult to see on the picture. I am most grateful. Regards Veteran

Thank you, Barry, for this very interesting link. It does seem as if this type of medal was worn from a ribbon, the colours of which are difficult to see on the picture. I am most grateful. Regards Veteran

Hello every one I am investigating this silver medal (51x44mm - 36grs). It was described by Hremann v. Heiden in 1903 as a badge worn by the Belgian Rebel Commanders and members of the Council when the Brabant Revolt was successful in 1789. Very helpful information has been kindly given by the members of the outstanding french-speaking forum (Forum des Insignes et M?dailles) which confirms much of this. One point remains to be clarified : what type of suspension could it have been worn from - ribbon or chain ? v. Heiden stated that it was a Belgian tricolour ribbon, but I find it rather difficult to believe. One of these medals was sold at auction in The Hague by Schulmann in 1985. I would tryly appreciate ane answer to that questuib as well as every bit of additionnal information. Thank you Veteran

Ed The truth is that most recipients did not look that close. But occasionnally one would, which makes this group particularly attractive. The first Croix de guerre were available in 1915, so that all men who received a citation between July 1914 and the end of 1915 had a 1914-1915 cross.... unless they lost and replaced it with the type available when the replacement was made. Awards in 1916 would have a 1914-1916 (my father who received his with the Legion of honor for Verdun in March 1916 had one). Same for 1914-1917 for the 1917 awards. All crosses available from 1918 until to-day are 1914-1918; because that is the official and final reverse of the WW 1 French Croix de guerre. Period. That is why I suggest that 1914-1918 crosses be ignored if some kind of proportions are to be established. Cheers Veteran

OK Chris.... re?u 5/5. Let's write things out, it will avoid such mistakes. My apologies. Cheers Veteran

Hi 1914-15 4 1914-16 1 1914-17 3 1914-18 4 I would like to add a few comments As a collector, I have priviledged the earlier dates, leaving alone most of the 1914-18 crosses I saw. The reason I have 3 1917 is that one is silver, and the other in a group; the 1915 are 4 because I consider they are the earlier ones, so I bought all those I saw. And the 1914-18 I have all show different variations in their manufacture (large/smaller numerals, hilts of swords touching the cross or not). This is just to say that collections may not be fully representative of the relative number of crosses made and potentially available. Don't forger that ALL crosses manufactured and sold since 1918 (and they are still available from the Mint to-day) have the 1914-1918 reverse. I would therefore recommend that only the 3 first types be maintained if statistics of awards are to be derived from this interesting project. My guess is that the scarcer are the 1916 dates. But this may not be supported by figures as they will emerge from the answers I hope replies will be plentiful and I am happy to contribute immediately Veteran

Chris I also favor possibility n?1. If you don't mind, I would like to comment some of your statements. You cannot apply for a croix de guerre. Your commanding officer either chooses to put you up for a mention (citation) or not. This is accepted by hierarchy or not. You finally get it or not. A croix de guerre and its "citations" carry no right to a pension. Only length of services and wounds received during active service are considered. The M?daille militaire also carries a small pension, as does the Legion of honor under circumstances. On the other hand citations are considered as "titres de guerre" and they can be taken in account for further advancement in national orders. As suggested in my previous message, the wearing of the croix de guerre showing its reverse, could well be deliberate and contmporary of the end of the war. He would have wanted it to be known that he received an early award, which again goes well with his multiple citations on the ribbon and the M?daille militaire which might well have been awarded for gallantry as the palm on the CdG suggests. One of thousands of brave men who fought in the 1914-1918 War. His group looks perfectly genuine to me. Congratulations for a very good group of awards. Veteran

Hello Chris This group should have the french Victory Medal. All personnel who had received a croix de guerre had an automatic right to it (arr?t? 20/07/1922 art.: 7). IT WAS NEVER ISSUED. In typical french manner, if you were intitled to it, you could wear it. If you were not intitled and wore it, you were prosecultable. In some instances, the Unit you had belonged to (if it still existed at the time the Medal was established) could deliver a certificate confirming the "right-to-wear". In all cases, if you wanted to wear it, you were free to buy one. But, to my knowledge, none were officially issued. This is one of the reasons why several types of french Victory medals are in existence, one struck by the National Mint, the others manufactured by private firms. The answer to this particular group is one of three possibilities : 1. He never bothered to buy one or did not care about having one or not. 2. One existed which was lost or separated (it should normally have been worn berween the Croix du Combattant and the Commemorative War Medal). 3. This group was made up or completed by some one else, who skipped the Victory Medal. (The fact that all awards seem to have been worn does not make this very likely). One really has to remember the different attitudes towards awards and decorations, from one country to an other. The French, basically, issue permissions to wear. The actual badge is for the recipient to acquire. It is often presented by friends, relatives or colleagues. Some military units have a tradition of presenting the awards, which are bought from the Mint. A small number of very special awards are issued - which cannot be bought. I know it is hard to understand. But that is the way it has worked in France since the Legion of honor was created and the badges first issued (1802-1804). Greetings Veteran NB. The mounting of the Croix de guerre showing the dates is meaningful : this man wanted it to be known that he had received an early first mention in dispaches (1916) before such mentions became very frequent. This to show he was an old-timer. An unusual personnal touch.

Hello Chris Your M?daille militaire miniature is indeed a very interesting one. It reproduces one of the very early types of the IIIrd Republic, with a monobloc trophy of arms cum medal. The full size medals of this type were replaced by the articulated types with and without the trophy of arms showing on the reverse. I rather suspect miniatures to have been made in this type later than the full size. But it still is an early manufacture and a fine piece. Greeting Veteran

Hello Paul Wonderful information as usual. Thank you very much indeed. Very best regards Veteran

Bill, This looks very much like a Frenchman's awards trio. One would say it belonged to an officer (Legion of honor) who received a french croix de guerre with 2 mentions in dispaches as well as a belgian croix de guerre with 2 more mentions. Possibly a liaison officer on the Northen Front with the Belgians. Since the two first awards are French, it signs the nationality of the wearer. A rather unusual combination. Nice buy. Regards Veteran

Helle every one I would greatly appreciate comments and information about this large (52mm-58grs) silver medal; unfortunately undated, it looks late XVIIIth Century. On the obverse, under the feet of the Victory figure, the sculptor's signiture reads : A. SCHABEL. F. I would also love to know what the letters S.C. on the reverse stand for. The latin legend on the reverse mentions an "Encouragement for the study of litterature given to Venitian youth". I hope some of the learned members of this forum will be able to help with what is a proclaimed award, if not military I must say. Thank you Veteran

Thank you very much for this complete and enlightening information. I was rather confused with the notion of "with" and "without" enamel as mentionned by Nimmergut. From your comments, I conclude that the cross I showed is roughly 1849-1910. As you kindly suggested with your first message. Very best regards Veteran

Haynau Thank you so much for this very fast reply. No, the reverse bears no hallmark or maker's mark of any kind. The star is well made, very much like the workmanship of the Legion of honor, but no doubt also up to the Austrian level of finish. One wonders about a Tuscanian order awarded until 1918.... or was it that the previous ArchDuke was an Austrian prince who awarded it as a souvereign in exile ?. Has anything been published about it? Would you put it among the Austrian orders?. I find it a little bit hard to locate. I knew about a Tuscanian Military Merit Order but the Civilian Order does not seem to have been particularly documented. I am happy you liked the Leopold Order I showed. My Austrian pieces are few and only bought when they really looked nice. For a very long time collectors in France, where I live, were very snotty about Austrian material which was not well understood and hardly collected at all. So pieces could be picked up at very attractive prices. Things seem to have changed to-day with the openinig of the market to international trading. The collection of imperial awards at the Hoffburg is an incredible place to visit and beautifully displayed. I enjoyed going there a couple of years ago on the occasion of a professionnal meeting, which was held in the palace. A wonderful experience. I am very grateful. Veteran

Hello every one This silver breast star bears no maker's mark nor hallmark on its reverse. It looks very much like a French Legion of honor star. The motto in italian "MERITO CIVILE 1853" points to an Italian state, possibly prior to the unification of the Kingdom under the House of Savoy. Tuscany ? I could find no reference to it either in Werlich, nor in the Trost or even in the Schultze. If it was founded in 1853, it will certainly have been short-lived. Every bit of information will be gratefully received. Thank you Veteran

Thank you very much indeed. An other question : the wonderful auction sale of the American Numismatic Society Collection conducted by Morton & Eden in October 2006 offered a rather similar breast commander"s cross, which differed by the fact that arms were enameled (n?77). Or is it an other type of award. I wonder if any one has an idea of its relative rarity, since it does not come up for sale very often (or am I mistaken?) Best regards

Thank you very much for your appropriate correction. I am most grateful Hopefully, the reverse I mentioned should appear now Best regards Veteran

Hello every one I would appreciate comments on this breast cross of the Order of Philip. Particularly the period it was issued (is it Nimmergut's n?819 ?). The reverse bears the maker"s name as shown The reverse to be shown on next message Veteran

Hendrick is quite right about this clasp. It was issued by the Vichy Government to military and civilian personnel who maintainied the colony called "C?te fran?aise des Somalis" during the blocade the British put up against them in 1940-41. Six months presence in the colony after 25 June 1940 were the conditinon to be met. To be complete, a first clasp was decided with the caption "C?te des Somalis" from September 1941 until January 1942 when the caption was changed to "1940 C?te des Somalis 1941". The first of these had previously been issued in 1934-1936 to personnel who took part in local actions. Since these clasps were issued for "hostile conduct" against the Allies, but mostly by rejection of the Free French, their wear was forbiden by a decision taken by the French Committee of National Liberation in Algiers on January 7 1944 (vide : HAAS, J. "La m?daille coloniale". 1997) Communications with metropolitan France were practically non existent during most of the time these clasps were supposed to be worn; therefore chances are that very few ever were worn at all, except possibly locally made ones, or available remaining stocks of the 1934-36 issues of the clasp. I remember buying one ( C?te des Somalis ) in the '60s from one of the Paris suppliers of orders and decorations. They were quite scarce at the time. Regards Veteran

Hello Mike I am not much of an expert with these sleeve badges but I can tell you it is not artillery : they always have a RED background. The grenade (which seem to be tarnished gold bullion) is usually worn by officers or NCOs which are not attached to a numbered unit. They could be HQ personnel, for instance. The black background (more likely very dark blue) is worn by the infantery, the red lines around (soutaches) adding information as to what kind of employment the unit are (armoured, motorised, etc..). If the background is velvet, then its is for Engineers (or militarised firemen in Paris). Various types of grenades are used as symbols by various Army specialities. Sorry I cannot be more specific. Regards Veteran

Hello Jef I fully agree that unofficial veteran medals are a matter of their own. They range from medals awarded by cities to the troups who liberated or defended them (i.e. M?dailles de Verdun, Dunkerque, Trois Cit?s) to commemorative medals issued by veteran groups having fought in the same areas (M?daille de la Somme, Ypres, etc..). Those are "tolerated" when worn on the occasion of veteran meetings and ceremonies, such as November 11. But they are in no case allowed on a military uniform during active service. The make-believe "orders and decorations", especially if they mimic the Legion of honor or use ribbons normally given with an official award of the Nation are absolutly banned.... Some people get away with them, but few really try to wear them during public functions or when government or military authorities are present. The wear has to be outrageous to be prosecuted, but potentially it is possible. In fact, one wonders when they are worn at all, except privately or during private functions.... but then you can also dress as an archbishop in your home if you so please. I hope I have answered your question. This being said, as I wrote in my previous message, since they exist why not collect them if they appeal to your taste. This is still a free world. Cheers Veteran

Hello Jef Jeff Floyd's post is very accurate. I would like to add a comment to the information he offers : these "private orders" and "decorations" have no official significance. In fact, they are purely the inside products of "mutual admiration societies" or worse (send so much for "chancery expenses" and you will get a "commander's badge") type of thing. French law forbids public wear of such material. They are absolute make-believe. Serious collectors like to know about them in order to stay clear. Some collectors like to gather such material. Why not indeed ? But please be clearly aware of what they are. Regards Veteran

Hi Brian Thank you for your kind comments. This cross was bought in Paris, many years ago from a well-known dealer of that time, and it probably came fron a French family. Strangely, the ribbon seems to be a combination of three awards which was sometimes found during the "Restauration" period (1814-1830). If this means anything in the history of this particular award, then it was worn by a military man, since the St.Louis Order was only given to officers. Should that be the case, only 5 general officers of that period could have owned it. And if the award was made during the time when the Austrians were fighting Napoleon, it could only have been given to an emigr? officer, which narrows the possibilities even further. The exact measurements of the cross are 45x32mm and the hollow crown is 31x31mm; the width of the ribbon is 38mm. This forum, in addition to information from the French medals forum, has brought a lot of information about this award. I am very grateful. Hopefully, more might come up later. Very best regards Veteran