lilo

Hi, FYI, regarding the first medal you posted, two types of ribbons were used : one for civilian (see below on the left) and one for military (see below on the rigth). Regards Lilo

Hi, - The 2nd ribbon from the right - in the middle row - is that of the 'Order of the German Eagle' (Nazi award); - The 2nd ribbon from the left - in the bottom row - is that of the the 'Vatican Order of St Sylvester'; - the Romanian Order of the Crown is the 1st type of this Order. Regards Lilo

For the records about the two different colours of ribbons used for the Order of the Star (or 'Nishan-i-Astour') we have : 1) First type : 3 equal stripes of blue/red/blue; 2) Second type : 'Cerise'. From what discussed above is plausible to believe that the change from 1st type to 2nd type of the ribbon happened in c. 1960.

Hello, For the records about the two different colours of ribbons used for the Order of the Sun (or 'Nishan-i-Almar') we have : 1) First type : 'pale blue' (on the left in the photo); 2) Second type : pale blue of a more 'electric' shade + the addition of narrow cerise coloured stripes toward each edge. (on the right in the photo) From what discussed above is plausible to believe that the change from 1st type to 2nd type of the ribbon happened in c. 1960.

Hi James, I have edited my previous post while you have posted your answer at this. May I ask you to re-read what I have addeed in particular a propos of the time changing (1960) of the ribbons from 1st type to 2nd type ?? Many thanks for the other answers Best Regards Lilo P.S. a very interesting exachange of information and a well done job !

Hi James, The discussion is becoming more and more interesting here, although some confusion is starting to come, at least for me. Before going ahead, I must WELL understand about what we are discussing. In your quote (I reported above), you have stated the Order of the Sun to be the same as that called Astour. I'm sorry to say that this is incorrect for what I have understood of all the matter. Again, the Order of the Sun is the 'Nishan-i-Almar' while the Order of the Star is the 'Nishan-i-Astour'. Is this correct for what you know ???? When we agree on this point we can discuss about the colours of the ribbons used for the two Orders. The Ribbons If I well understood what you say, regarding the : - Order of the Sun (or 'Nishan-i-Almar') two different (in colours) ribbons were used : 1) First type was : 'pale blue'; 2) Second type was : pale blue of a more 'electric' shade + the addition of narrow cerise coloured stripes toward each edge. regarding the : - Order of the Star (or 'Nishan-i-Astour') two different (in colours) ribbons were used : 1) First type was : 3 equal stripes of blue/red/blue; 2) Second type was : 'Cerise'. When Happened the change of the ribbons from 1st type to 2nd type ? I have found the following web site : http://www.royalark.net/Afghanistan/orders.htm run by Christopher Buyers. Between the various descriptions of the Afghanistan Orders there are the following : -Order of the Sun (Nishan-i-Almar): founded by Amir Abdu'r Rahman ca. 1897, reformed and reorganised by King Habibu'llah Shah in 1901 and by King Amanu'llah in 1923. Remodelled by King Muhammad Zahir Shah in 1960 with a new ribbon and badge. Reorganised into a single class order during his exile in 1977. -Order of the Star (Nishan-i-Astour): founded by Amir Abdu'r Rahman before 1901. Later modified and expanded to include four classes by King Muhammad Zahir Shah. From what it is stated in the web site, the change from the 1st type to the 2nd type of the ribbon of the Order of the Sun was made by King Zahir Shah not in 1933 when He took the power but later in 1960. For what regards the Order of the Star, instead, the change from the 1st type to the 2nd type of the ribbon, although not clearly reported in the before cited web site, is cleary stated in the book (I have cited in my starting post on this thread) entitled : 'Reference Catalogue Orders, Medals, and Decorations of the World - Part I, Iron book A - D, Borna Barac', where on page 18 it is stated that the change of ribbon happened in 1960 under King Zahir Shah. In conclusion, the two sources both agree on the fact that during the year 1960 of his reign, the King Zahir Shah reformed some of his Orders and between the changes He made there were those of the ribbons (from 1st type to the 2nd type) used for the Orders about which we are discussing (i.e. the Sun and the Star) Some questions : 1) Is it correct what I have understood about the colours of the ribbons of the two Orders? 2) If yes, from what source have you taken these very important conclusions/information ? 3) In the specific, I would like to know from what source you have taken the fact that for the Order of the Star (or 'Nishan-i-Astour') was used a 1st type of ribbon (blue/red/blue) ? 4) Am I correct in having understood that the change of colours of the types (from 1st to 2nd) of the ribbons for both Orders happened in 1960 during the rule of King Zahir Shah ? Awaiting to hear from you Best Regards Lilo

Hi James, I have re-read your last post and I think that a litlle misuruderstanding occurred for the incorrect identification the Belgian Army museum made of the Afghanistan Order received by King Albert. As suggested by you, I googled to see the Belgian King's Afghan Order and I found it at : http://www.klm-mra.be/klm-new/engels/colle...bert/index.html (see the left list : it is the 1st Order listed) I must report that it is incorrectly described/called by the museum as : Ordre d'Ustar (i.e. Order of the Star) but t is fisically corresponding to the Nishan-i-Almar (i.e. Order of the Sun). So, to recapitolate, we have two different Afghanistan Orders about which we are speaking : 1) Order of the Sun (Nishan-i-Almar); 2) Order of the Star (Nishan-i-Astour): this is spelt variously and we can find it also as : 'Ustar', 'Istour', etc. Beeing so the things, all the confusion - at least between these different Orders - is cleared up. The two different Ribbons used for the Order of the Sun (Nishan-i-Almar), that received by Belgian King Albert, are : - pale blue used from the istitution of this Order to the beginning of the 1930's (the same ribbon colour of the Afghan Order given at the end of 1920's to Belgian King Albert); - blue/red/blue used from the beginning of the 1930's to the demise of this Order. (In conclusion all correspond with what you have posted in your preceding comment !) The ribbon used for the Order of the Star (Nishan-i-Astour) should be that of Cerise colour. What do you think about my clarification ? Best Regards Lilo

Hi James, Many thanks for your usual kindness toward me in answering my various questions ! As I already stated in the answer I posted above and now that I can see the photo you sent me, what I recognise here - at the best of my knowledge - is that of a complete set (i.e. sash badge + breast star and including the sash ribbon) belonging to the Order of the Sun. You are correct that the first type of ribbon for the Order of the Sun used from its istitution till about the starting 1930's was of a 'pale blue' colour but later (I don't know the exact date) it was changed in that of the 2nd type that is blue/red/blue. The data you have to state that the ribbon used for the Order of the Sun till the starting 1930's is the pale blue, coincide with what is known to me so no conflict at all with what I have said. I only have addeed that a new 2nd type (blue/red/blue) was later used for the Order of the Sun. Again, going back to my starting query, you have said that a blue/red/blue ribbon was used for the Order of the Star. From what source you have taken this informations ? Best Regards Lilo

Hi James, Many thanks for your replay and kind offer (PM sent). However, at the best of my knowledge, the ribbon colours blue/red/blue were just the colours used for the Order of the Sun. (please bear also in mind that another -1st type- ribbon, different from the blue/red/blue before mentioned, was used for the Order of the Sun). In conclusion I think that the photo you have in your catalog is that of the Order of the Sun with his correct 2nd type of ribbon (i.e. blue/red/blue). What is not clear to me is what let you think that the dealer attached a wrong Order from the blue/red/blue ribbon (which thing I know to be correct) ? Returning to my previous question I agree with you that the Cerise is the correct colour used for the ribbon of the Order of the STAR. My modest opinion is that the other ribbon (that with the Black/Red/Green' colours) was used by people who did not know the correct ribbon to use with this Order, but I would like this matter to be judged by other forum members. Regards Lilo

Hello Everyone, I'm searching for what should be the colour/colours used in the ribbon for the Afghanistan Order called : Nishan-I-Astour (known in English as 'Order of the Star'). The sources on this order either in internet or in the various auction catalogs are scarce but I was convinced that the true colour used for this Order was the 'DARK CRIMSON'. This was my understanding till I bought a book I ordered from the following web-site : http://www.ormedec.com/products.html The book in question is entitled : 'Reference Catalogue Orders, Medals, and Decorations of the World - Part I, Iron book A - D, Borna Barac' On page 18 of this book the author identifies Five different types of the Nishan-I-Astour Order starting from its institution (about 1920) till his demise (about 1973). He also identifies two different types of ribbons used for this Order as following : 1) a 'Black/Red/Green' ribbon used for the first four types of the Nishan-I-Astour Order, in use till 1960; 2) a 'DARK CRIMSON' ribbon used for the fifth type, from 1960 till the demise of this Order. Please bear also in mind that in the Editor's Preface of this book (on page 7) it is reported the following statement : 'Although we are sure that it (the book) contains a number of incorrect data, particularly with China and Afghanistan, ??????..' this being an admission by the same author that not all that was written in this book especially for what regards the Afghanistan material, is correct. My questions are : -Is it true that the Nishan-I-Astour Order had the two different types of ribbon as above mentioned ? -If not, what is the exact colour/colours of the ribbon used for this Order ? In particular, I'm trying to establish the exact colour used for this Order in the period 1928 ? 1939 and this because I want to use the exact colour ribbon to put in the medal ribbon bars of two British recipients that received this Afghanistan Order. The first recipient was Lord Baden-Powell that received the 1st class of this Order in 1928, during the visit to England of King Amanullah. The other recipient was T/Capt Francis Douglas BAKER (1884-1958) that received the 2nd class of this Order in a period 1933-1939 (I don't know exactly when). Awaiting to hear from you Best Regards Lilo

Many Thanks Regards Lilo

Who is He ? Regards Lilo

Hi Carol I, Many thanks for your answer. Regards Lilo

Hi All, Finally it seems that this little mistery was solved ! Richard In regards of the submission of the artiche, I surely have not it so I greatly appreciate - if you want - that you post it here. Carol I For the records here, Can you remember which class is the Striped Tiger Order attribuited to General Constantin Stefanescu Amza ? As an aside, May I ask you to answer a similar question about the colours used for the ribbon of another Chinese Order (Brilliant Star) with particular riferiment to the Grand Cordon class ? You can see my post at: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=33354 I suspect that two different types of ribbon were used for this Order but would like to establish - as precisely as possible - an exact date for the change of the pattern. Richard Any entry about this, in the article by James W. Peterson and Harry Mohler you mentioned in the previous post ?? Paul Wood ??? All the Best lilo

Hi Paul / Richard, Many thanks both for your answers but we are always to the starting point : red or dark purple ? Regards Lilo

Hi Dick, Thank you for your posting but we returned to the starting point : what are the exact colours for the 3rd class ribbon of the Striped Tiger Order ?? As always stated the central colour seems to be the green (watered or darker) but what is the correct colour for the edge stripes : the 'red' or the 'purple' ?? Regards Lilo

Hi Paul, Again, many thanks. Regards Lilo

Hi Paul, Many thanks for your help. You say me to see 'ANS 3' but what is this ? Can you post a link please ? Many Thanks Lilo

Hi Everyone, I look for your help to exactly establish, in regards of the Striped Tiger Order, which are the colours of the 3rd class ribbon ? I know that the central large stripe colour is : (+ or - dark) green; I have seen the two edge stripes in red, violet, and ligth red/rose colours. What I'm trying to establish is the correct colour of the 'two edge stripes'. Hoping that someone can give me the answer Best Regards Lilo

Hi again Sabrigade, My compliments for such splendid medals and clasps. Many thanks for your help Best Regards Lilo

Hi Sabrigade, Many Thanks and Best Regards Lilo

Hi and compliments for your splendid display ! May I ask you to post some detailed images of the 3 Khedive Sudan 1910 medals with clasps (two with 1 clasp and one with 3 clasps) you have in your medal collection ? I'm deeply interested in this medal and on his clasps. Many Thanks in advance Best Regards Lilo

Hi All, He is a Major of the Italian Army in a post WW1 photo. The medals/Orders He wears are : Ordine della Corona d'Italia, Ufficiale; Medaglia Veterani Guardia d'Onore al Pantheon; Medaglia della Guerra Italo-Austriaca 1915-18 (coniata nel bronzo nemico) + 1 bar (I suspect it can be '1918'); Medaglia Unit? d'Italia 1848-1918; Medaglia Interalleata della Vittoria. The name on the back is 'von RICCIONE'. Regards Lilo

Hi Antonio, Again Many Thanks Regards lilo

Hi Antonio / Hipnos Many thanks for your clarifications. Hipnos What is the post of the 'Order del Yoke and the Arrows' in the order of precedence you compiled above ?? To reassume and if anyone will correct me on what I have understood, Ettore Muti received the : - Spain, 'Cruz de Guerra', without palms and with 'blue central background'. The ribbon worn in his ribbon bar is identical to that of the below attached photo.