James Hoard

If you want transliteration say so. What I gave was interpretation. And if you want to get pedantic, that is perfectly fine too. But then where do you get "princess" from, since there is no word for princess in Persian? There is only "Shahzadeh Khanum" i.e. "lady son of a king". I have explained the meaning of Nawab already. It is used to indicate that the person is of the rank of Royal Highness or above. Cheers, James

The truncated phrase can be more or less divided into two parts. The first, ending at "alliye" says more or less Her Royal Highness Princess. Though the implication is that she is a Royal Highness by male-line descent (which she was not). I do not know what "d.kal" means. The last part seems to have been cut short and probably actually reads something like "mohtarameye hazrat-e vala aghdas shahzadeh ..." meaning Consort of His imperial Highness Prince ... I still don't see anything about Chinese year of the snake. Do you? Cheers, James Cheers, James

Good. Brilliant, I am absolutely overjoyed that you know it. Now, what the dickens does it have to do with the Chinese year of the snake?

The word "Nawab" was used during the Qajar regime for all those of the rank of Royal Highness or above. It had nothing to do with prince successor to the throne or venerable husbands or any such stuff and nonsense. 1323 is the Islamic year of the Hijra. Cheers, James

Owain, I cannot say whether or not it ever took form. It may well have, I just do not know whether he did or he didn't. Your postscript is most interesting. Presumably he would have had to turn up in something at parties and may well have made this for himself. All he would have needed was to have new central medallions made to fit into an old set. Of course, those who would have known about Tunisian orders would have asked him where his Order of the Blood or Order of the Fundamental Pact were. The Order of the Blood was awarded to all princes. The cost of those insignia would have been very much higher, so his answer would have been interesting to hear. Cheers, James For those who are interested in the family, please see http://www.royalark.net/Tunisia/tunisia.htm There is a section on the decorations at http://www.royalark.net/Tunisia/orders.htm

Gentlemen, That particular chapter of Burke's Royal Families of the World is complete eye-wash. This Rechad Al Mahdi was a complete fraud and hoaxter, who operated in London during the late 1960s and early seventies. Unfortunately, the then editor of Burke's fell for the whole story and published the falsified genealogy and claims passed to him by Mahdi. Mahdi was extremely clever in devising his fraud. He would pick genuine members of the Beylical family who had died without leaving children or of whom little was known outside the family itself. He would make them his relatives, maternal cousins, in-laws, etc. He would take real events and real facts, and cunningly weave them into his falsified life story. For anyone unfamiliar with North African, Tunisian or even the intricacies of the Beylical family, everything would have appeared plausible. If people had their doubts, they were not in any position to prove the contrary. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King! The man actually came from the Lebanon or Syria, and was probably a Christian. He was not related to or even connected with the Tunisian Beylical family in any way. Apprently, he even spoke Arabic with a distinct Western Med accent, not North African. The whole thing may have started as a party joke amongst the Oxbridge "studentry". But, having passed himself off succesfully in parts of London society, he may have become emboldened to carry it far further than it may have otherwise led him. I suppose he told himself, if the shirtmaker and bootmaker would give him credit, why not Standard Chartered? I think eventually he fled London and was arrested for some serious drug or currency laundering offences in the US a few years later. Lamine Bey never created an Order of the Crown. But he did establish the Order of Independence (Nishan-i-Istiqlal) in 1956, awarding it to Bourgiba and several other champions of the freedom of the country from France. The republican regime took it over and reorganised it in 1957, making minimal adjustments. Lamine Bey never abdicated in vavour of his brother, Mahdi or anyone else. In fact he refused to do so and was treated very shabily in his old age by Bourgiba. Cheers, James

It is not my guess. See for yourself the blow-up of Queen Alexandra's insignia worn on the bottom of the sash, posted by Markus earlier in another thread.

From what I have read about her she always had a problem with punctuality. So perhaps it was a very simple mistake. The photographer and everybody was waiting. She rushed out having pinned everything on as best she could in the time. As far as I can see from the much earlier Queen Victoria photograph and the Queen Elena portrait, the sash is also over the wrong shoulder and should be left to right, not right to left. This too suggests a late addition of the Aftab insignia. She probably came in with the VA and RF orders already pinned onto the left shoulder and there was no time to re-arrange everything at the last moment. Cheers, James

Markus, Looks like you have found another first. The second star, worn at the top in the north-east position nearest the arm appears to be entirely new to me. The central medalion looks like a military standing lion, but the star seems to have blunt enamelled arms that I have never seen before. Cheers, James

I wonder if this is all a mistake and that Queen Alexandra is actually wearing the ywo decorations in reverse? Perhaps the semi-circular decoration is actually the badge and should be worn from the broad riband. It looks exactly like the sash badges presented to other recipients, except for the additional drop diamonds. When presented, it may have been in the box alongside the other insignia, but not actually attached to the riband. Conversely, the 'special' diamond and enamel 'star' may have been pinned onto the bow of the riband by mistake. It is possible that because the star came with its own bow, the Queen was not quite sure where to pin it on. Clearly, with all its sharp points and raised surface it could not have been meant to be worn at the hip. As I mentioned earlier, there was an older Turkish order with a star which ladies wore from a ribbon on the breast. But this too would not have been familiar to Europeans because it was never bestowed on foreigners. Cheers, James

Markus, To me this star pinned to the sash is not like anything else I have seen before. The central medallion is unique and rises quite high from the base to the top. So I do not think there is any connection with the Lion and Sun. All in all this object would have been quite awkward to wear in the place where Queen Alexandra has placed it. Her lower arm would constantly be in danger of being cut by the sharp points of the star, while the sleeve of her dress would certainly catch everytime it brushed past. My considered conclusion is that this star is not meant to be worn there at all. Most probably it is meant to be worn on the upper breast or shoulder, perhaps in the same way as the Queen's VA and Edward VII Royal Family Order. Who knows, perhaps this particular decoration was made after the fashion of the diamond encrusted star of the Turkish Order of Iftikhar. Lady recipients wore the latter star from a small bow atached to the left shoulder or upper breast. Cheers, James

Note to Administrator. Could we please have a separation of the posts in this thread. The discussion seems to have strayed from the Order of the Lion and Sun to the Order of the Aftab. Thanks, James

Markus, This blow-up of the sash badge is very, very interesting indeed. It is a different shape to anything we have seen of the Aftab anywhere else before. However, I do have a little creeping doubt as to what this 'item' could be. It does seem to be pinned on top of the bow of the sash, and indeed not in the middle either but considerably over to one side (the right). Normally, a sash badge would be suspended from the bow, and rest below it on the cross-over end of the sash. The way this is attached suggests that there is no suspension, but perhapaps a pin device on the back. More like a breast star than a sash badge. Finally, am I worng or are there too many ends to the sash? There appear to be two broard ends at the cross-over point, that are the same breadh as the sash, as one would expect. But then an additional set of narrower ribbons, apparently of the same colour scheme, on top and slightly to the right side. Could it be that we have here a second decoration which goes with the narrow ribbons, pinned over the bow of the regular bow of the Aftab sash??? Very curious. Cheers, James

Quite obviously I was NOT talking about that! I said "... SCROLL DOWN TO THE BOTTOM there is a colour scan of a part of a PAINTING in the Golestan Palace of either Queen ELENA of ITALY or Queen MARIE-HENRIETTE of BELGIUM..." Cheers James

There are several photographs taken at the same time at slightly different angles. I just also found this website article, but it is in Farsi. Nevertheless, if you scroll down to the bottom there is a colour scan of a part of a painting in the Golestan Palace of either Queen Elena of Italy or Queen Marie-Henriette of Belgium wearing the same circular star. http://qajar.wordpress.com/tag/%D9%85%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%84-%D9%88-%D9%86%D8%B4%D8%A7%D9%86/ You can use Google translate or Bing translate to translate the text, but neither are very good so there can be confusion about what the text actually says. Cheers, James

Yes, it seems you are right about the latter. See my other post regarding the first class Aftab badge elsewhere.

Please see: Stephen Patterson, Royal Insignia: British and Foreign Orders of Chivalry from the Royal Collection. Merrell Holberton Publishers Ltd, London, 1996. p 170. The author also quotes from Queen Victoria's Journal entry for 20th June 1873 in which she describes the investiture. She first mentions the bestowal of the Order of the Royal Portrait, then goes on to say "... the other is a new one istituted before the Shah left Persia (sic), for ladies, and is a very pretty Star and small badge, also in diamonds, the latter hanging from a pink silk watered ribbon bordered with green ..." A small picture of the Queen wearing all the insignia appears on p 168. She is definitely wearing a circular star. The description of the insignia received by Queen Mary in 1904 (or 1905?) is the same as that for Queen Victoria, a circular star. Queen Alexandra, howevr, received a semi-circular star with three diamond droplets as seems to br borne out in the picture posted earlier. Cheers, James

I wonder. In the case of the 1836 decree of Fath Ali Shah on the order of the Lion and Sun, she can give an exact date, but in the case of the Aftab she can only say "February 1873". Her article, despite the many footnotes is not actually very reliable. Her figure 12, for example, is not an illustration of the Order of Lion and Sun, but the Nishan-i-Aghdas. It does not date from 1836 but from 1870. There are no such illustrations in the 1836 firman. Throughout the text she confuses nishan and khilat. Sahib, in the context of the order means lord, sire or sir, not "holder". Thus a much closer analogy to chevalier than she is able to explain. Cheers, James

Does she include a copy of the firman in her book or simply quote another secondary source? James

Markus, This is not the Lion & Sun but one of the Nishan-i-Aghdas group of awards. If you look at the top, the case is made with a space for the crown and agrette device which has somehow become detached from the rest of the breast star. Most probably flogged for the valuable drooping diamonds. Cheers, James

Markus, It was definitely the Aftab. The award is mentioned in the Court Circular covering the Persian State Visit. Cheers, James

Markus, I think this is another "collector's copy". The actual decoration should be covered with diamonds. It also looks like Queen Alexandra's decoration may have been the second class. Queen Victoria's star was a full circle of rays around the central medallion with the face, all the rays covered in diamonds. Queen Alexandra's, on the other hand, is a half circle and seems to have three drooping diamonds. By the way, the second badge on Queen Alexandra's shoulder, just below the Royal Order of Victoria and Albert is the First Class of the King Edward VII Royal Family Order. Cheers, James

Hello Markus, Thanks for posting the wonderful pictures. Prince Firuz was born in 1889, so this picture dates from a lot later than 1875. He received the GCMG in 1919 but is not wearing that decoration, so probably dates from before that date. His principal positions held were Governor of Kerman 1907, Under-Sec for Justice 1915-1916, Minister for Justice 1916-1917, 1918-1919 and 1925, Governor of Hamadan and Kermanshah 1918, Minister for Foreign Affairs 1919-1921, Governor-General of Fars 1923-1924, Minister for Finance 1927-1929, imprisoned by Reza Shah Pahlavi 1921 and 1929-1930, Deputy for Kermanshah in the 4th, 5th and 6th Majlis. The uniform he is wearing is not a military uniform. It is a civil court uniform from about 1910-1925. Whether it is the first or second class civil uniform, I cannot quite tell. As far as I know, he held no military rank. Most probably, his Arts & Sciences decoration was received because of his educational achievements. He had degrees from both the American University of Beirut and the Sorbonne, Paris, including a doctorate in civil law from the latter. All at a time when degrees amongst Iranians were still rather thin on the ground. By the way, regarding the so-called "bribery" in 1919 what actually happened was the British released the first installment of the £2 million loan before the treaty had been actually signed. They were so sure it would go through. When the treaty did not go through, the ministers simply helped themselves to the money. Alas, Iranians tend to believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories so nothing ever happens because of the decisions or choices of Iranian power brokers or people in charge of the country. During this period, we are supposed to believe that the British simultaneously bribed Firuz, instigated the Tabatabai coup d'etat to topple him, theeReza Khan coup that toppled Tabatabai, then attempted to save Firuz from Reza Shah who, British creature that he was - refused. That in logic, one or more of these conspiracies would actually cancel out each other, somehow escapes the Iranian mind! Cheers, James

To be quite frank, given the way some people behave on this forum, I am not inclined to share anything. Those who wish to proceed with the request may contact me privately off-line. Cheers, James

I shall try to (once again) address some of the issues raised by another poster, but without resorting to the trademark emotional histrionics. "When Gritzner wrote about this analogy (lion and sun - legion) what he meant was the general idea behind the system and not that these orders were exact equivalents of each other. Crosses ... Classes... That's a good one! The L&S served a very different set of requirements in Persia from those of the LOH for France. Consequently the divisions (non-existent in the LOH), different ribbon colours (non-existent in the LOH), and medals (non-existent in the LOH) were used to meet these requirements. All unnecessary in the case of France and not to be found in the LOH. The Persian military system had, for example, very many more officer ranks above that of colonel (sarhang), which awards of the L&S had to meet – brigadier (sartip), brigadier-general (mir panj), major-general (amir tuman), lieutenant-general (amir lashkar), general (sardar), field marshal (sardar-i-salar or sipah salar-i-azam), and generalissimo (sardar-i-sardari). France, on the other hand, had just three – général de brigade (major-general), général de division (lieutenant-general) and maréchal (field marshal). The picture in regard to the non-commissioned ranks was similar, and was accommodated by the several grades and shapes of medals available to reward those soldiers. There were similar requirements on the civil side with particular requirements for awards to clerics and provincial administrators. None of these pressures were required, contemplated or reflected in the structure of the LOH. Hence the need for divisions, grades, different coloured ribbons, etc. Furthermore, while the GC of the French LOH functioned as the usual award for heads of state, in Persia the first class of L&S was not used for this purpose at all. Instead, it was an entirely different order, the Nishan-i-Aqdas. “And of course Gritzner knew about medals. He mentioned four different types of medals in his text. One should really try to read it." Alas, it is at variance with the comment about the structure of the L&S being the same as the LOH. Since the LOH had no medals, the existence of them in the L&S is a serious point of difference between the two orders. “As for "the phonographic evidence..." - indeed they are out there. In black and white. With unidentifiable lions (standing/lion). As for colored pictures - here is a nice example that was recommended to me ones http://www.parstimes...abir_stamp.gif. I wonder in what statute we could find the description of this ribbon color... But no doubt photographs with multicolored ribbons are out there” Perhaps I am blessed with superior eyesight, but I am usually able to see that there are different coloured stripes in black and white photographs or, that the arrangement of colours varies between one photograph and the next. I can miraculously tell if a ribbon in a B&W picture is dark or light, if there is one light coloured stripe down the centre of a dark ribbon or two down the sides or, whether the main colour is light with dark coloured stripes on both sides or down the middle. Quite apart from black and white photographs, I also gave links to hand coloured photographs, coloured contemporary portraits and illustrations. Cheers, James