Les

I'm booting this thread back to the top because it paralells a current thread (started 31 March 2005) that refers to one of the PlMs in the thread. The are close ups of the eagles, that can be compared to a wartime Wagner, Friedlander, and unmarked "W/Fr" PlM. Brian, the wings and tailfeathers are where the exact similarities are easiest to spot. The hand chasing of the heads, beaks, and breast feathers are obviously different because of worn dies and extra hand work to freshen up the eagles. Les

Rick, Stogie. I had that question in mind when I picked it up of a seller's table. -Applied-. That would have been difficult to stamp with the tag as part of the design. Les

Gordon, I don't recall having seen another double-screw back in many years.That's a really graet one to have picked up. Claudio.... nice, very nice! Les

Not as nice as the previous two....here's mine. 800 silver marked at the top of the wreath on the back on a raised "box." Les

Brian, Reproduction? That's a word with loaded meaning. I'm assuming Tim knows the difference between struck and cast medals, and there's a specific die flaw on the reverse of the medal (that's also present on your grandfather's and other original wartime pieces) that is also present on Friedlander pieces. I won't mention what that specific die flaw is other than to mention someone who is very adept at making photo comparisons compared a Friedlander PlM to your grandfathers PlM (Brian, you'll know who the person making cmparisons is), and a few other Wagner and/or Friedlander PlMs owned by members of this forum and the WAForum. Tim's was struck from heavily worn Wagner dies, and the chasing on the eagles breasts to "freshen up" the feathers can be seen in one late war Wagner PlM that is featured in Previtera's "Prussian Blue." The silve content stamp matter is one element that indicates post-war manufacture, and the fact it was struck from original dies does narrow it down to having been made after WWI and before Wagner went out of business. The presence of a die flaw on Tim's and the wartime originals demonstrates it was made frmo original dies....in all probability by Wagner and before 1945. What's the adage about the dies don't lie? Some would call anything made after the time a piece was originally manufactured and awarded a 'reproduction" although that would mean any and all EKIs from the 1914-1918 era made prior to 1945, would be "reproductions" if that definition is used. Some on the otherhand use a looser definition that accepts any medals made in Germany (or Austria as part of the 1938-45 Reich) as not being a reproduction piece. If you prefer the first and very limited defintion of having to be made before November 11, 1918 as a definition of "original" does that mean a PlM recipient who bought a buttonhole mini PlM device to wear while in civlian dress, -after- that date was wearing a reproduction? Les

I'll have to take some photos of my measley collection of cased items (where's Ralph A when the subject of cased awards comes up?) and post them. Rick...that Wurt Commanders class is really something. Weren't there something in the range of 18 or so of these awarded during WWI, and if this one comes from that time frame, do you have any details of who it was awarded to, and for what? Regards, Les

J?nger was living in France during the last few years of his life. On his 100th birthday, he was visited by many people (Mitterand among them). A reporter who interviewed him at the time, mentioned J?nger showing him his PlM that he kept in a box. The "Urkunde" in the attached photo is the correct form for the document, although the signature and ink stamp aren't. Normally during WWI, the signature should be Wilhelm's, and the seal should be embossed on the paper. Kaunitz's signature and the ink stamp often appear on other documents (for example the HOH). Without a better photograph, I'm inclined to wonder if the document shown here is real and the museum was using "filler." Les

Chris, there's also the enlisted versus officer consideration. An enlisted man or "commoner" coming from a working class type background usually had to do "something" to get decorated early in any of Germany's (the same can probably be said for almost any other European country with a class system), whereas officers coming from a middle or upper-class background might get medals for very different reasons other than personal bravery or "leadership." Social status often resulted in officers with a "von" getting an award, for reasons that at times appear to be little more than saying "thanks for being there, even if you didn't do anything" and something they could wear in front of family and friends. The soldiers and officers in the thick of things usually knew who "earned" something the hard way. The EK's weren't the only medals to be awarded for "being there" during the later part of WWI and WWII. Look at the statistics for the numbers of RK's given out during WWII by year, and during WWI, the same thing happened with the GMVK and PlM. During the first part of WWI, the PlM was usually awarded for successful actions -against- (meaning offensive combat in which objectives were taken) an enemy. For example, Rommels' actions in Italy during 1917 and his capture of a mountain peak or two, and thousands of Italian troops in the process is an outstanding example of an officer who displayed personal initiative and did more than he was expected. By the middle of 1918, when the German spring/summer offensives had failed and German forces were clearly on the defensive and losing ground, the number of awarded PlMs and GMVKs were on the increase. During the summer of 1918, instead of receiving medals for offensive actions against enemies at the front, German soliders and officers were starting to increasingly be awarded medals for -defensive- actions and what amounted to holding the line.. For most of the war (1914-1917), the soldiers (and officers leading them) were expected to do more than hold the line, because traditional military thinking is that wars are not usually won by remaining on the defensive. By 1918 (and similarly in late 1944/45) being able to hold the line was becoming the best that could be expected. Les

Rick.... -very- nice! "Wow" is a big understatement. That's a tough act to follow and you may have intimidated any further posts. Les

I know several of the orders use the same cases, with the inside fitted for whatever the particular medal is. We see plenty of medals here, however the cases often get overlooked. Anyone care to show off what cases they have (with the medal taking second place for the moment) with the intention of seeing different cases from different time periods, materials used, colors, closure styles, and so on? Very often we see medals being displayed, but for example, how often do we see the case for the RAO breast star? Anyone have something they'd like to show off like that? Les

Prosper, "C" should stick with collecting and buying things he knows -and- keep a good tractor mechanic around...... ;-) I agree with you that units wouldn't normally send something home to family, that bore traces indicating how the relative died. I know of one very rare "c.f." from the early days of WWI. A German officer was wounded and taken to a field hospital. Somehow, his family was sent a tunic that didn't belong to him...it was senior NCO's with a thigh wound, with the foreward treatment stations wound tag along with the man's name, type of wound, and overall condition still attached to the tunic. Speculation is that the officer was stripped of -his- tunic (a chest wound from the medical reports researched about 15 years ago) and was in shock while waiting to be treated, and may have been covered with another tunic to keep him warm. According to his file he died before he could be treated and his personal effects were sent back to the family, and the tunic, assumed to be his (without someone noticing it was a senior NCO's, not an officer's tunic) was sent to the family of the dead officer. Imagine getting the information that a family member died, and a bundled-up tunic with a bloody hole in it, someone else's name on it. That situation is a rare one, a real fluke, and a major departure from the norm. Now, back to comments on Iron Time, and errors of fact? Regards, Les

Thanks guys! Mike, you're absolutely right about the date...I should have noticed that instead and paid more attention to the photo instead of trying to carry on a conversation over the phone, scratch the dog behind the ears (I was gone all day and she wanted some attention), and have an initial reaction to that thing on ebay. I make no pretenses to being an expert on EKs, and when I see one that's a bit different from the norm, and doesn't look like the known varieties or standard types, I probably approach them with more caution that most people do. Joe, there are days when I feel like a dead horse, and I don't mind getting beat on from time to time. All I ask is that no one try to pull up a stump and hear about me being taught something. I won't use that old southern expression here. ;-) Les

Mike, This may be a fake afterall.... Check out this link on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/WWI-GERMAN-IRON-CROSS-...1QQcmdZViewItem The fellow says he has more of these....and the suppply is limited. The pin and attachment looks the -same- as the one I posted, core details are too close for comfort, etc. If I post a close up of the inner corners of the cross, could you compare the frame details to yours? Les

Glenn, Thanks for the date. I found a very short bio on him that mentioned he was born 12 December 1910 and although it said he died, didn't say when. Didn't he "clerk" at the Ordenschancellory after he was getting back on his feet after being released from service? I'd heard that was one of his claims for expertise with what went through the chancellory during the war, and what he saw, read, handled at that time was partly based on is working there. Part of my asking when he and Anna died, is because I've always wondered what happened to the dies he and his wife supposedly acquired from the final liquidation of the Godet firm's assests to the company owned by K's wife. Although Kleitmann and his wife didn't die all that long ago, no one seems to have any knowledge of what happened to the "Godet dies" the firm is said to have acquired. I seriously doubt that they went into the nearest scrap metal recycling bin, or are being used as paperweights on someone's desk. If the Godet dies did indeed survive the firm being bombed in 1944, and the dies are "around" there are all sorts of possibilities inherent to their being somewhere out there. On a tangent, there's the issue of what happened to dies made and used by other firms...such as Wagner, Friedlaender, Meybauer, and others that lasted through to the end of WWII. I'm curious whether German laws would permit someone to enquire how the Kleitmann-Paetzold estate was probated, and any assets sold/disbursed, and if there are extant records that might indicate if anyone bought dies, tooling, or other materials from their estate(s). Les

Mike, Bingo. 42mm both ways. I was aware that TR crosses were larger, although I wasn't certain if that also applied to -all- of the 1957 items. Going by the size yardstick, the cross is smaller, and would seem to be pre-WWII. BY the way, I liked the idea from "that other place" of setting up an archive of each type. It would be interesting to borrow the concept and do the same here as a reference by maker and variants. Rooting through various archived threads appearing in no particular order takes time, and a picture archive similar to what Bill did "over there" makes a considerable amount of sense. I knew I saw a cross like mine with the same type of pin arrangement somewhere on-line and hunting it down took time. Many thanks for the advice and comments ! Les

Mike, I don't subscribe to it either. I found it through a goodle search looking for something else, and spotted the archived images. You don't need to subscribe to -read- the archived images. I know some folks have preferences and or attitudes about various forums....and that's all I say about other forums and what goes on elsewhere. Amicably, Les

Mike, Compare this one to the example on post #4 from here: http://www.militariacollecting.com/index.php?showtopic=22299 The example on this site has a brass core (the one here doesn't). The cross there has a brass center, and is marked 800 on the reverse. Note the pin type. The one I posted has the same shape, curved head of the pin, and larger shaft in the center of the attachment block. My impression after seeing this one and the same crowns, "soft" W, and same date that although the materials for the cores are different, the dies used were probably the same. The pin on the one I posted probably broke or snapped, and the rough part where the shaft/tube was smoothed out and the pin soldered in place. Looks very very close... Les

This is one of those questions where there is no particularly good areaof the Forum to post this question. Does anyone have the dates when Klietmann and his wife Anna died and possibly obits ? Thanks if anyone is able to help on this... Les

Mike, many thanks for the comments. It's not pretty, but even if it's not Imperial or between the wars, it's not a fake. I haven't quite figured out what the 1957's are all about and telling them from some of the fakes isn't something I'm able to be certain about. Regards, Les

and pin up.... Les

Mike, Many thanks. Here's the requested photo and some extra ones. I looked carefully where the angled arm of the pin touches the back of the cross, and there is a mark/gouge where the angled end of the (current) pin has been making contact. The marked surface appears to be from -this- pin end, and there's no other marring to suggest another pin had been there. However, this pin -is- odd and could have been replaced, or soldered on to repair a broken/lost original part. Workmanship on the entire cross is mediocre. There are file marks on the sides of all arms and ends of the cross, and also on the pin itself. The cross appears to be lightly silvered, and the pin has the same type of finish, with slight wear on the undersurface. Les

George Peterson is selling these (cheaply) as reproductions. The photos didn't give all the details I wanted, but once in hand, I was surprised that the piece is much better than I expected. It's not steel, definitely not silver, although there's some heft to it. Even some of the cheap reproductions/fakes can look reasonably good as a filler piece until you learn what to look for and a real one comes along. Normally I pass on collecting reproductions, although certain specific high quality fakes being sold for what they are, are interesting pieces I try to get my hands on long enough to photograph, and to learn about what the "state of the art" fakes are doing. Les

Yes, I see he is, and he's selling it clearly marked as a replica. I was -not- making any comments about the seller. His description isn't representing it as "real" or a "post war copy" as the Spanish copies on ebay (and elsewhere) are usually described. The seller is being honest and straightforward, and I wasn't implying anything else. If it was taken that way....my apologies to the seller first, and foremost, and then to all others. What's potentially dangerous about -this- piece is that the next owner may add false jewelers marks, silver content stamps, etc, and try passing it off as real. The typical Spanish copy on the market is usually bronze-gile, not silver. I hope this is sold to someone honest, and not with other ideas in mind. Les

Guys...look at this one. It's not perfect, but this is one good looking fake and better than the previous Spanish copies. I'm going to ask the guy for better photos. http://cgi.ebay.com/POUR-LE-MERITE_W0QQite...1QQcmdZViewItem Les

It's magnetic, -very lightweight- and I'm not sure there's any silver in this thing. The crown is high relief and lacking detail. The "W" is soft and rounded without distinct edges. The pin on the reverse side is similar to some of the 1957 versions I've seen on the Forum. Instead of a one-piece pin, the pin is bent and soldered to the pin or dowel in the pin-block. Is this a knock-off fake or is this one of the relatively uncommon "1957s" ? Les