gerardkenny

Thanks for that, does help a lot If anyone can add to the names that would be a great help too. Also if anyone has a theory why a (presumably) British officer would be discharging a German on Russian notepaper ? I am completely stumped on that side of this too (though there is probably a blindingly obvious explanation for that !).

This arrived recently (included unexpectedly with WWW2 & WWI items) and I was wondering if anyone can help to decipher the writing on it ? I appears to be an notification from a Russian or possibly British officer, I believe to a German (in English), however it's on Russian headed & stamped note paper from 1904/1905. I was wondering if anyone can make out some of the more difficult to read words and figure out the context for this ? From the dates it's possibly a christmas leave notice. 24 Dec (23 Dec) 1904 _______________ 1904/2 6 Jan (7 Jan) 1905 5 To Captain of ______________________ Dear Sir, I am honoured to inform ________ That you can go to _______ (to __________ if __ ________,) This day. - Superintendent Captain __________

Just as an aside the Confederate flag is still used in Ireland by Cork hurling supporters. Partly because Cork was always known as the Rebel county. Some people tend to get offended but most people don't mind.

That is a very interesting pic. Thanks for posting.

Aaah - of course, cheers.

Thanks for that - very useful. I thnk your right about the top 2 being Nuremberg of course. Can I just ask what is a 'HKx' medal ? Not familiar with that term and google thinks it's either hong kong related or this !

I was wondering if anyone can help to identify these men (& their medals). All the pictures came together and I believe they are all the same event (2 definitely are). Pic 1 - when I first saw this I first thought it was Hierl without a mustache . . . ! Medals Same 3 without medals Came with above - possibly same event PS I don't normally use watermarks but have had to start. Thanks for checking and any info on the above.

Those are very interesting & would love to see more, thanks for posting them.

That is what I would call a great escape !

Hi Peter - that is odd, 2 of the 3 links I posted work for me now on a different computer than the one I posted them from. One does not so maybe it timed out ? This main search link should work for everyone until the 13th December ; http://www.irishtimes.com/search/archive.html

Not sure if this is the same Thomas Conlon ? http://www.irishtime...36F345923379938 An official report issued from Dublin Castle yesterday states;- A Party of Police in a tender on Curfew Patrol was fired at in Ross Road, Falls Road area, Belfast just after 12am today. Constable Thomas Conlon was shot dead and Constable E.J.Hogan and the driver of the Crossley, Special Constable C.Dunne, were dangerously wounded in the body. Found that in the Irish Times Online Digital Archive which is again open for free to the public (this time until the 13th December) you can save them as .PDF for reference. The archive dates back to 1859 every single edition is scanned and online. I believe this one here may be other references to the same Thomas Conlon http://www.irishtime...06.html#Ar00600 & there were lots of others there too. The best online source of information possible for RIC, Auxies, Irish History. Also for European history it is fascinating too. This was one article that caught my eye from 1869 - also Irish Constabulary though It relates to the Carrickshock incident of 1831, one which in my view was very important but has almost dissappeared from the national history; http://www.irishtime...02:8713578B5369

Podium RPT grounds 1936 HJ posing in a swastika cape This is one of the unknown locations - I am 99% sure I have seen this before but can not remember where Nürnberg Cathedral Another unknown location - possibly Sanssouci Thanks for checking.

Here are some pictures from a 186 picture set I picked up recently. The set includes HJ posing, training, camps etc also some landmark locations around Munich, Berlin and Nürnberg. There are lots of the same guy postwar working in a quarry too (1947 - 1948). The set also included some non military nautical, holland and Alps tourist ones. If anyone can put locations to any of the uncaptioned pictures here it would be much appreciated.

Very nce medal :)

There is a good article here about the composition of the black and tans. Re Smyth and Listowel - there is another article here from a Garda Síochána historical website that might be interesting to some. I wouldn't mind photographing that plaque at Listowel myself.

I have read something similair (but don't have the source to hand) and that was that the tans put 'Executed Tout' signs on people that they killed in order to deflect suspicion from themselves. I can probably dig up the source of that but it would take a while - proving that it actually happened to everyone's satisfaction either way at this stage would probably be impossible though. On balance I would say it is at least possible. Regarding plain common-garden variety criminals killing people and assigning it to republicans - that may also have happened in War of Independence era Ireland, though it probably goes without saying that it would have meant some very 'harsh treatment' for the criminals had they been caught. I also think they were more likely to have been caught by the IRA than the authorities at that time.

I agree with the previous posters that the thread has been civil all round so far which is obviously better for all. I would not agree with all of the points raised though - probably no one here would. As most here know the black and tans were called in after the RIC were unable to contain the situation and RIC morale and recruitment nosedived. The posts were advertised in britain, hurriedly looking for men to 'face a rough and dangerous task'. They were recruited, paid very well, trained and shipped with a sense of urgency that might have contributed to their lack of discipline. There may have been some Irish born in britain at the time who joined & considering the numbers of Irish returned from WWI it would not surprise me. Having said that I have not seen evidence that the Irish born members of the black and tans were significant in numbers. It was always claimed in Ireland that they were composed of the unemployable dregs of british society and emptied military prisons, but most would have been just returned WWI combat-hardened veterans. There is a well known order from Col Smyth an RIC Commander (later shot by the IRA) which I think is useful to remember. I have also read that some of the RIC men present to hear this later joined the IRA. "....If a police barracks is burned or if the barracks already occupied is not suitable, then the best house in the locality is to be commandeered, the occupants thrown into the gutter. Let them die there - the more the merrier. Police and military will patrol the country at least five nights a week. They are not to confine themselves to the main roads, but make across the country, lie in ambush and, when civilians are seen approaching, shout "Hands up!" Should the order be not immediately obeyed, shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching carry their hands in their pockets, or are in any way suspicious-looking, shoot them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent persons may be shot, but that cannot be helped, and you are bound to get the right parties some time. The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man ..." June 17, 1920, Lt. Col. Smyth To my knowledge they were rarely deployed in Ulster so that may make it easy to understand their record there. Their record in the other 3 provinces of murder, violent attacks on catholics & their property is substantial and pretty horrific. They took pot shots at civilians, shot priests, tortured prisoners, assasinated mayors & many other innocent people. They also targeted creameries which has been seen as a mode of economic intimidation against the local population. They tried to burn towns to the ground (a few examples of which were already mentioned - there were many more not mentioned) even to the point of shooting at fire brigades & cutting their hoses to let the towns burn for longer etc (ironically the hoses of the Dublin fire brigade were the ones cut decades later in the aftermath of the 1972 bloody sunday when the british embassy was burning down). Eventually the british press and some politicians were rightly repulsed at their behaviour. I would agree with the person who said they were not suited for a policing role (& also that there were atrocities on all sides as mentioned above). I would also agree that much of this on both sides is clouded with propaganda and exaggeration. Whichever way their introduction was originally envisaged it completely backfired, they drove the moderates away from constitutional and towards physical force republicanism. They de-legitimised the british role in Ireland even further in my view both here and on the international stage and scored a massive own goal as regards the propaganda victory they handed to so called physical force republicanism. With all that in mind & given the scope of and scale of their record in Ireland I have a hard time believing that the black and tans were 'essentially a decent force' and all this was the work of a few or even just 1% misbehaving.

I think that will depend entirely on who you speak to & going down this conversation could easily stray this thread into the politics. Putting it mildly I would not agree that their actions could be accurately characterised as 'benign paternalism'. There have been a multitude of reports over the years into different aspects of policing in Northern Ireland - (including the B-Specials as mentioned). Many commissioned by the british govt after this event or that which were highly critical and called for change. The fact that the B Specials were approx 99+% protestant should tell you something. As an FYI there was to my knowledge a single IRA infiltrator - though I believe he was also Protestant. Pre patton I believe the RUC hovered about the 6 to 10% catholic range though I am sure others here will have more accurate figures on that.

There are many points there - many of which would already be known. It goes without saying that I am aware the the Neil Jordan movie is not 100% historically accurate. I was actually in that movie and so have first hand knowledge of how events on screen are never 100% accurate. Which is why I do not base my opinions on that. Ironically that movie hints at De Valera's involvement in Collins' Death, though most people including myself would discount that aspect of the movie. The theories around Beal na Blath are many, there was an interesting documentary about this on Irish television recently. It had been filmed somewhere in the very early to mid 1980's and interviewed surviving members of the Squad and other insiders. This went through the various scenarios and forensic evidence. One main suspicion was about a former british army man who was in Collins group ( many volunteers were of course ex BA), whom it was suspected had shot him in the back of the head either by accident during the ambush or deliberately. Another fact which I had previously not been aware of was that on that day and at the time of the ambush, 2 seperate IRA groups who were travelling across the countryside co-incidentally arrived on the scene from different approaches and joined in the attack. I would not give any credence to the 'De Valera had Collins assasinated' theories, as at this point theories is all they are. If you disregard the fact that Collins' Death subsequently worked in De Valera's favour there is no real evidence that he was involved. That has never stopped the accusations. In fact about a month ago a book was published which recieved much publicity in Ireland - it is the work of an american who is an 'amateur Historian'. The main contention of the book is that De Valera was in fact a british spy. The point about Collins being the most wanted man in Ireland (or arguably europe) was not related to the website link you posted. In fact he did not whistle his way through the checkpoints as some people would prefer to believe - he was frequently stopped and harrassed, including one famous incident when he and his colleagues ended up getting some some Fusiliers drunk on whiskey to avoid further investigation or hassle- this happened in either howth or Dun Laoghaire (I can't remember which offhand without checking). There was another instance where he was being manhandled and on the point of going for the soldiers gun when a comrade arrived and defused the situation - so the point is there is a wide gap between the 'jesse james' type of stories and the reality & I am aware of this. The fact remains he did bicycle his way around Dublin and by all accounts I have read/heard he rarely missed appointments or commitments - including to the De Valera family who he gave money to and checked in on weekly. In fact he cycled towards trouble too - there was one famous case where Dan Breen was held up in a house in rathfarnham when the british army sweep came close Collins and his men recieved word from other sources and unknown to Breen rushed up to help him shoot his way out. In the end the sweep missed the Breen safe house by either a house or a road. Breen commented later on how the first he knew about it was when he looked out his window and saw Collins and some other volunteers milling around outside his house. I think the point you make on whether or not Collins was known to the british establishment basically agrees with mine, of course they were aware of the exsistence of their opponent - the point I made was that they did not know him personally through months of daily intense and involved contact. There was a famous double agent who did get to meet him (twice I believe) before being executed as a spy, when asked to say his prayers his last words were 'God save the King'. However the overall point stands, the establishment/govt had not met him, did not know what he looked like (short of one or two unclear photographs). This was the point I made and I believe it is correct. It was an argument made by Collins directly for him to not be included in the treaty negotiations and to my reading of things makes perfect sense. I would agree as would most people that De Valera was cynical, manipulative and disingenous (as a politician this is not too surprising) in his treaty negotiations period behavior. I still believe that he was genuinely surprised at the outcome. He was not prepared for the split. The groundwork had not been done on the anti-treaty side for either the vote or for a military conflict and it genuinely took them completely by surprise. If De Valera had the awareness months or even weeks in advance I believe the anti-treaty side would have been more prepared for both the vote and the aftermath. Considering the finished document was worked on until literally the very small hours (under threat of the terrible consequences etc) it was a surprise to De Valera - despite his involvement as a 'signatory in reserve'. I think the batons posted are very interesting but would have no idea to their value though I imagine it is quite high :)

I think considering the treaty split the IRA, caused the Irish Civil War and politically polarised the country for decades that's a bit of an understatement ! Many people believe that De Valera knew we were not going to get full independence and therefore sent the delegation (which included Collins, Griffith etc) knowing that on their return he could either take credit for their work (plenipotentiary status) or that they would be the messengers of bad news who he could disown - which is exactly what he did. In fairness to De Valera it is arguable whether he knew just how far short the treaty would fall at the time he sent them. One fact which had worked in Collins' favour throughout the Irish War of Independence was that he was not known to the british establishment, either his character and temperament nor physically what he looked like. He really did bicycle around Dublin in a suit while being the most wanted man in Ireland and arguably europe at that time. He felt that keeping it that way was sensible should conflict resume at a later date. Being a part of the delegation put him in an impossible position and as he himself was obviously aware signing it he was signing his own death warrant.

Another one many Irish people would be aware of was from General Michael Collins from the treaty negotiations "When you have sweated, toiled, had mad dreams, hopeless nightmares, you find yourself in London's streets, cold and dank in the night air. Think - what have I got for Ireland? Something which she has wanted these past 700 years. Will anyone be satisfied with the bargain? Will anyone? I tell you this -early this morning I signed my own death warrant. I though at the time how odd, how ridiculous -a bullet might just as well have done the job 5 years ago." - Michael Collins in a letter to John O'Kane after the Treaty.

I think this was the Connaught Rangers ? Re the Wellington quote about being born in a stable, I had read that it was the other way around that it was not Wellington denying his Irishness but Daniel O'Connell denying it to him ; "The poor old Duke [of Wellington]! What shall I say of him? To be sure he was born in Ireland, but being born in a stable does not make a man a horse." http://books.google.com/books?id=dpKbWonMghwC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_navlinks_s#v=onepage&q=&f=false

In Tim Pat Coogans (in my view) definitive Collins Biography he relates a story that Michael Collins himself was in fact at Howth on the day of the landings. He had a safe house in the area and at least one volunteer later swore that he was there.

I think you may need to be a member for a little while longer for access as it is in the section * Gentleman's Military Interest Club * > Collectors Corner (Restricted Members & Above Only) * > Members Valuation & Identification Forum Here is a link to two of the pictures contained in the thread. I dont own the picture it was posted by a user called 'sniper' just using the same link as was used to show which I hope is ok)

The buckle seems to match the one on this page here; http://www.irishmilitaryinsignia.com/metal/metal_index.html click on the beltbuckle on the left and on the following page 'General', it seems to be the 2nd one down. Hope this helps.