Tony J

October 10, 1917 December 4, 1917 Both EKIIs. Tony

Brian, We know that the official awards numbered 659 in November 1915 and the number grew to 859 awards by October 11, 1917. These figures are quoted on page 150 of my copy of 'Das Eiserne Kreuz 1813-1939' published by Deutsches Ordensmuseum Ludenscheid. If these figures are believable for that time frame, there was still a year and a month left till the end of the war in November 1918. How many more WHS could have been awarded in that last year? I don't think very many. Even if we accelerate the progression of later awards a bit during the final year of the war, I doubt the total official awards would excede 1000. This is just speculation on my part here. The other question that may be impossible to answer is, 'How many duplicate awards were made?'. 2X, 3X, 4X the amount of official awards? I don't know. More to ponder. Tony

Oops!!!! A slight correction to my posts #77 and 81. I incorrectly mentioned the second 1870 Wagner GC was marked 14 Loth. THIS IS NOT CORRECT. Looking over the pictures I have of it I noticed it is marked 13 Loth. 13 LOTH is the correct mark. My error. It's said that the memory goes first as we age, sorry about that! Tony

Brian, You have some thoughtful points to consider. I often wondered if this was just a case of separate markings used by the official maker to differenciate decorations for supply to the government and those for commercial sale as duplicates. We know this type of system was used some years later during the TR era. A pertinant question to explore could be 'Why wouldn't this possibility exist during the Imperial era? Tony

Thanks Brian, Once again! To quote my friend Marshall from some previous correspondence. "I've thrown the cat in among the pigeons!" All the best, Tony

Thanks guys! I'm glad to be here and to be able to participate. I had the choice between the MMed GC and one with the 14 Loth. I chose the MMed one shown for several reasons. The MM is one and the condition of the core finish had better eye appeal to me. The MMed one clearly identifies Wagner as the maker and IMO an intellectually more valuable example. What I really like about these examples is the canted FW / and the date numerals / on the core reverse in true GC fashion. On most other GC copies these features are just vertical without the cant. With these Grand Crosses being display pieces I don't think that the double bounce of the hammer on the marking die was an issue. Probably a lite tap for positioning followed by a second one to impress the TM. Albeit a little out of register after the initial tap. Interesting detail but a minor one IMO as the original award pieces were not MMed. Also keep in mind we are looking at a magnified view and it is more apparent here than looking at the piece in hand. Double punched TMs are not unknown. I have an L/21 marked TR era U-boat badge that shows a similar out of register double punched mark on the pin. As for the mark being applied at a later date? Good question. I didn't see any evidence on either GC that the mark was applied post assembly. I will check again more closely with that in mind on the one I have just to make sure. I will do this when I retrieve it from the safe to measure and weigh it. Tony

Good morning Gentlemen! Thanks for the kind words. A special thanks to Marshall for his help with the posting of this and other photos to come. I'm a newer member here. I see some old friends from other forums here so I feel right at home. The photos are my intellectual property and copyrighted as such on the back of the original images. I have no objections to their use for study purposes with proper credit. I have given Marshall the okay to post as necessary to further our collective knowledge and enjoyment. After all we are here to learn and I'm glad to help out. The 1870 GC that is posted by Marshall and the close up posted by Daniel ( no problem here either) is of the same cross that I'm in the process of acquiring for my collection. It belongs to a very good friend of mine whose collecting focus has shifted away from medals and decorations. A companion 1870 GC, also Wagner made, was just marked 14 Loth. That one has since been sold. I believe I sent Marshall pictures of that one also if a comparison is needed. My opinion about this Wagner GC is that it may have been made as early as the 1895 Jubilee period but more likely during the 1914-18 War. Obviously for display purposes as all the awarded GCs are accounted for. Accurately dating a piece like this is problematic at best without corraborating info. As the pictures show, the quality is such that this is not the usual reproduction for collectors. The finely detailed iron core is properly fixed between two silver frames. The ribbon loop is oval. I don't have the dimensions and the weight at hand but I can get that for anyone interested. All in all about as good as can be had for a GC example. Interesting thread! Tony

Gents, Just to throw a cat in among the pigeons, as Marshall once wrote to me. I have the identical screwplate on an '14 EKI with the same markings EXECPT mine doesn't have the Hansen name on it. I have had this cross for many years now and have only seen one other example of this type. Also without the Hansen name. The example shown here and the ones in the picture of the box show slightly different spacing and angles of the M. Hansen stamp in relation to the rest of the markings. I would say that the Hansen name stamp was applied at a different time and not in the same stamping jig as the rest of the markings. To see a whole box full is interesting to say the least. I can send out pictures via snail mail to anyone that can post it for me. Thanks! Tony

Bill, Very interestig study. I will ahve to look at mine and see if I can add anything to the list. Where are you located in the Chicago area? I usually set up at the Hillside show and the Concord Show in Northlake. Maybe we can meet up and compare notes. Tony

I have a nice Lionhead Heer sabre marked with the intertwined PS logo. Scarce maker. Tony