Ed_Haynes
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Posts posted by Ed_Haynes
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Oh . . .
. . . oh!!!
Nice. And this is a "must" for research, though you may come up empty.
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Or maybe is it just the learning curve of someone who discovers the wonderful research that can be linked from those mysterious numbers on an ugly and unloved Order of Glory, 3rd class.
Very different from the lovely pieces of jewlers' craft that come as Imperial German or Imperial Russian orders. Pretty baubles, nice eye candy, but zero history.
Footnote: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2329
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Christian!!!
Good to see you again. A long time, too long!
Ed
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Eisenhower's Order of Victory is a screwback one. Its photography is displayed in Paul McDaniel and Paul Schmitt's book (page 46-47). . . .
Eisenhower's is also on display at the Eisenhower Library and Museum in Abilene, Kansas. Once, when I visited there (well, the only time I visited there), the staff was very cooperative and opened the case and let me hold (fondle) Ike's Victory. Being on faculty (at the time) in the History Department at Kansas State University (our offices were in Eisenhower Hall, after all) probably helped.
As US uniforms are no more fit for wearing screwback orders than British ones, part of the NAM's answer rings hollow. Yet, Monty being Monty, I suspect he made his wishes crystal clear regarding how he wanted things done. It is also clear that while Ike rarely wore any medals beyone the moment of presentation (he rarely wore all the RIBBONS to which he was entitled); Monty, being more theatrical, would surely have at least contemplated wearing his Victory.
Are there photos of him wearing it? I can never recall seeing one. (There is the photo of Eisenhower when he received his Victory but for Monty . . . ???) He would have been officially restricted to no more than four breast stars in any event.
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Eisenhower's Victory is certainly screw-backed. I wonder where/when Monty's modification was made?
Thanks for taking the time to put up these pictures, Christophe.
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There has been an extensive "British basics bibliography" discussion over at the OMSA website and, rather than copy it here, see:
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One might add, still according to Dr Battushig, that from 1959 onward for army and police staff following standards were set:
10 years of distinguished service Combat Service medal
15 years of distinguished service Combat Service order
Jan
Thanks, Jan, for the clarification.
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Rick ® has raised a couple of questions. Let me see what answers I can provide.
Welllll, considering there was NO "combat" in Mongolia from the month of August 1939 until August 1945 and none at all thereafter (? 1960s border incidents with the Chinese?) what were ANY of these for? That's less than two months in the last 60 years of armed "combat," period.
Well, not strictly true. Based on Battushig's coverage of military history, what is in the often unreliable US "country handbook", and on those few other sources on Mongolian history that I have at hand:
liberation war - 1921-22
suppression of insurgents - 1931-37
war against Japan - 1937-45
clashes with China - 1947-48
I know there is an ongoing quibble over the English word "combat". Until I know what the real (Mongolian) name of the various awards says, I shall pass up getting involved in this.
The Military Merit Order seems to have been for 15 years of long service-- were these ...Banners
given for 20 (and 30, and...)?
The awards as given for long service 1947-59 (only) are very complex and confusing. As Battushig liosts these (p. 26, I can extract:
Military, Interior, and Border Troops:
10 years - Honorary Medal of Combat
15 years - Order of the Polar Star
20 years - Order of Combat Valor
25 years - Order of the Red Banner of Combat Valor
30 years - Order of Sukhbaatar
Teachers:
10 years - Honorary Medal of Labor
15 years - Order of the Polar Star
20 years - Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor
30 years - Order of Sukhbaatar
Battushig also lists an interesting, complex, and quite obviously confused third category, that of medical personnel. There were different standards depending whether on where you served in the city of Ulanbaatar, in the wilds of the Gobi desert, or elsewhere in the rural regions of the country. While I think Battushig has these confused (and I am asking him for clarification), he shows:
Ulanbaatar:
10 years - Order of the Polar Star
20 years - Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor
25 years - Order of Sukhbaatar
Other non-Gobi rural:
5 years - Order of the Polar Star
15 years - Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor
15 (?!) years - Order of Sukhbaatar
Gobi desert:
3 years - Order of the Polar Star
10 years - Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor
10 (?!) years - Order of Sukhbaatar
Yes, something seems confused here . . . ?
This "senior awards for long service" nonsense (learned from the Soviets) was stopped in 1959.
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Ed,
I always thought this was a very unusual last name for an indian. German or dutch father??
Garth
No, a common name, especially for one-named low-caste, actually Lachman, though the Brits had trouble spelling that.
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Bronze issue to LASCAR LUTCHMAN INDIA ORD. DEPT.
Really nice bronze, Garth. Scarce unit!
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This is very sad.
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These Masonic badges come, literally, by the kilo with the Indian medal dealers. Pretty for sure, but scant interest in them.
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Yes, to be honest, I was quite amazed at the size.
54.5 x 37.5 mm
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Famous photo (Battushig p. 98) of Choibalsan, stripped down (in terms of medals, WHAT A THOUGHT!), with "a friend from the North".
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Thanks, Jan. I looked but somehow missed them in those early threads before we became more "scientific".
To go direct, try
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Oh, yes. Thanks, Jan!
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To add more mud to the Mongol waters, an earlier snap of a younger and more cheerful Choibalsan (Battushig p. 28) with his 5 (!) ORBMVs (though the picture is pretty clear and it does not seem as if any of them have numbers).
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Am I losing my sanity??
(OK, don't answer THAT.)
Evereything we know, everything I have read, tells us that these things were issued with no number, "2", "3", and "4". Awards through "4". Fair enough.
BUT: In evidence, the famous Choibalsan photo (Battushig p. 20). Unless I cannot count (as I tell my students, there are three kinds of historians, those who can count and those who can't), I count five (5!) OCRBs. Now, I do not see any numbers on any of them. We all know Choibalsan was, well, er, "special", but . . . ???
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No, it is nice to be able to get "up close and personal". That's one of the problems with those excessively big groups . . .
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I thought we had the "Choibalsan's Best Shooter" badge (B #C08) shown elsewhere here, among our early Mongolian threads, but it has eluded ready location, sorry. As I recall, we had some information on varieties there?
The reverse is mirror-imaged, and I have also scanned the screw-nut, as the manufacturer is divulged.
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Type 2.2 (B #40.4)
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The Chief of Beria's Armored Train
in Russia: Soviet Orders, Medals & Decorations
Posted
Good question, but wouldn't it depend on when and under what circumstances the book was issued (as distinct from ditto and ditto on the orders)?