Luftmensch

Great observations, Rick, as usual. A few reactions, in reverse order... On balance, I think you're quite right that the Zeppelin commanders weren't A-rated celebrities. Maybe if they had those flashy Zep badges sooner it would've made them more conspicuous. Buttlar talks about pulling birds in bars, but I don't think that was down to any particular magnetism other than exuded by an officer's tunic. Zeppelin raids were front-page news around the world, and I still think you will find Wilhelm was more generous with his Navy Zepp aces. In fact, as I talk about in the Thor Becher thread, if there was hot competition between army and navy to bomb the prestigious targets, Wilhelm might have been disappointed his first team (the Navy) was beaten to London, after it had been first to bomb England. Could that have been why the House Order was so slow in coming? Not long after that Wilhelm shut down the army Zepps altogether! Yes, when Detlev first sent me pictures of the bar he tucked that War Service Cross out of sight! Rick, do you have Linnarz's service record? I know his Zep service but nothing about his previous flying duties as observer or after the war! As for identification and the higher standard of verification, Detlev sends a COA that contains color photos, his signature and a verification ink stamp on every page, just like a registered letter package. Then he folds down the upper corner of the multi-page COA and stamps it so no other pages of collectibles like missing Zep badges and other tchotchkes can be miraculously "married" to his group over time by me! Now that's verification of what he sold me to a high standard. But when individual medals are not named or impressed as on Commonwealth gallantries you just don't have that same high standard. But hey, I'm not going to argue against my own group, as a cross-over collector I just notice the different degree to which one can be iron-clad, and speculate whether this is why Allied aviation groups are worth 3 or 4 or 5 times comparable German groups. Rgds John

Exactly! And Volkmann was given the big iron plaque, without which I couldn't have d e f i n i t i v e l y identified the little iron medal on Linnarz. Up to that point, where was the actual proof? Which I think is what people feel deep down when they decide to pay less for German ace groups than for British, or American aces. And then, because these things are unnamed, no one can be sure that, say, a PLM hasn't been married to an Urkunde with Christiansen's name on it. So they pay more for the document than the PLM itself! Everybody knows what Linnarz's group cost. How about the medals to the man who shot down LZ 37..... Went at auction inn the 90s for I believe (correct me someone) in excess of 100,000 pounds. THAT'S QUITE A DIFFERENCE IN VALUE! (I suspect also if Linnarz had been in the Navy the Kaiser might have given him a PLM for his feat rather then the House Order.) Warneford wore his VC for a few days, and then while taking off from Paris fresh from his Legion of Honour ceremony he crashed and died. I remember the French decoration was twisted and broken in the catalog photo where they had prised it out of his ribs. http://www.devon24.co.uk/flatfiles/history/veday.aspx

Sounds like a good investment once the sea level stops rising...but I'll pass. I'm tapped out on medals with stories this month! Rgds John

Naaaaaaah....I picked up these same medals at "market value" and had `em mounted.....anyone want a Zep group cheap, you supply the story?

Hi, Claudio I reread the earlier thread about whether the price was too high or not. Not wishing to single you out! I quote your comment because a lot of people collecting on the German side do think this way.... No, Stogie, it didn't escape me that Linnarz airship (Zeppelin) was the first to bomb London (not England). Still to me the price was a bit to much. Niemann asked at least double the market price of such medal bar for this nevertheless very interesting story. Not bad. That is what I call maximizing the profit, like the auction houses in the last 10 years. The more the collectors and history enthusiasts are ready and willing to pay, the more the prices will increase.... like a bit collecting VCs, PlM or RKs... now it's time for well researched groups or medal bars! I think you answered your own question in the second graph. Most German collectibles are unnamed and bought and sold like commodities. Those who collect Allied groups know an ace commands $20,000 +++. The "history" rightly commands a premium. German medals are AMAZINGLY undervalued by comparison. Before that changes, a mental adjustment will be necessary to realize that an attributable story is not just a "story". With tighter paperwork this could be consigned to a Spink in London and already make profit. Stogie was absolutely right about this being undervalued. Rgds John

Ed, amazing how some people are so hair-trigger that they respond before they know where the thread is going! The old thread omitted something that might be significant, because only Detlev at that point could examine the photo up close. Unlike an Allied bar this group is unnamed and unattributed in any documentary sense, unless the family surrenders paperwork. But the insignificant little medal links the officer in the photo to the first London raid. The fullsized plaque was given out to every crewmember on LZ 38. I have never seen the smaller size before, or in photos sewn in this fashion on a Luftwaffe tunic. That is the point of this post. A postscript if you will. Not so easy, Claudio. Detlev did not know what it was. It will make the group easier to sell next time!

Mr. Chairman, I move to add Les to the list of prohibited players and strike those last comments! But then a guy who's indoors on a day like this looking at medals is pretty hardcore and deserves some kudos. The tricky one is opposite the Zep badge, ay 9 o'clock. Here it is in full size. Look familiar?

I picked up this great photo of a Major in the Luftwaffe who evidently was busy in the Weltkrieg! I know you guys could probably ID the medals on the bar blindfolded while fending off Ninjas with a pair of dull chopsticks. But what about the group of four below the bar? Any guesses? Employees and family of the corporation, their subsidiaries and affiliates cannot enter this competition and neither can STOGIEMAN nor ANDREAS!

Rick, you are a POET and a scholar. I read your closing graph in a Rod Serlingesque voice and it sent chills down my spine! I wonder how those blind from birth conceive of mass destruction when they can only guess at the appearance of objects and structures intact. Rgds

Most interesting...your inestimable opinion, Tim?

And special mention for Rick for being a forceful devil's advocate! And precipitating this inquiry!! Rick, what is this companion website you mentioned?

At the risk of stepping between Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee, I still think this is somewhat of a red herring. Les' photo grouping is rare evidence this type existed!

The forensic turn of this debate reminds me of Powell's mobile launch trucks at the UN or measuring the angle of the shadow of Old Glory to prove we were never on the moon! As Rhett said to Scarlett, "Frankly, I don't give a damn" if it's the same badge. It would be nice for the value of Les' group if it was. I'm mainly interested in whether such a type existed. Rick doesn't have the benefit of the other photos of our man, yet, so he's justified in being skeptical of the photo. I noticed the difference in curvature, too, when I first saw the side by side. But to me nothing is definitive unless everything is compared at identical angles. I'm confident we will feel comfortable with the photo once the other period photos are posted. To dig in on the issue of whether these are the same badge is secondary to whether this type existed. Rick's opinion that the banners were fantasy is the hypothesis we set out to explore. Hence we've made some great progress here!

Split up and dispersed? I thought you faxed that codicil to your lawyer naming me sole beneficiary of all kuk artifacts? Hey, I've been watching your six since post no. 25! And I think I've grown overly fond of emoticons. But when my girlfriend complains about the time I'm spending on this keyboard.... I just post one of these and she's endlessly amused...it keeps her quiet! How did you come by this superb group, Les?

Well done, Les. Hey, Rick, you should love one-of-a-kind photos. You were the one with the only photo I've seen of a fretted out pilot's badge, remember? But your badge won't be one of a kind, Les. I have a cased one. There was one in Vegas. Chalif pictured one. Andreas Thies had one... http://www.andreas-thies.de/pdf/herbst02/B...log_II_2002.pdf If only we could document our specimens as genuine as you have! I suspect they are already being passed off as fakes, as Rick can attest. When you have time, I'd love to read the whole story of this man and his artifacts in a separate thread. I'm of two minds on this notion of aiding and abetting fakers. Forums like these are based on the idea that sharing information is ultimately better than hoarding it amongst an elite. Perhaps the best balance is struck by eliminating the reverse image or emailing it on request. But removing the front image I feel is unnecessary, possibly the back, too, unless there are unique and heretofore unknown markings. There is much posting of detailed backs and fronts, and that info is archived, not destroyed. Speaking as moderator, Rick, what do you think?

Ouch, he's got a Luftwaffe Honour Goblet case....Amen, Tim, but when you see these on eBay it's hard to mistake them, the gilt logo screams at you. I'm waiting for someone to work at dusting these repros down a bit and taking the lustre off which is why, truth be told, I passed on the one in France, because the pictures were so poor and I was too lazy to push for better images.

Les, if you've quite finished building snowmen in your backyard, may we pretty please 1. See a big close-up of the badge in the photo 2. See the back of the actual badge itself 3. See a picture of one of the tunics

Sure, Steve, for the purposes of this thread, why not post your other two A-Hs. Rgds

Join the club of spurned emailers...the only way I've been able to get one of his catalogs is to buy one at a show. He usually travels with extras.

I don't believe there is any way to date a case, unless you have accompanying material that suggests pre- or post-war. My personal bias is that fewer cases survived wartime use, and the majority of cases extant were from post-war purchases in which the badges rarely left the box. I have several attributable groups with multiple wartime badges...no boxes...they all came on their own. I've never seen any one else's wartime attributable group with a surviving case. Anybody know of one? Actually, I used to have a cased Poellath pilot that looked like it was bent in a plane crash...but it was just as likley his grandson took a wooden mallet to it!

Hi, Steve-- Flayderman's collection was a prime example of buyer beware! Where do I look on this link?

Fuhgeddaboudit, I grew up in Jamaica...(transplanted from Toronto)...it's definitely past its prime. Stogie, I got a nice patch picked out for you on the North Sea....remember?

Striking uniforms...beautiful presentation. Thanks for sharing!! Rgds

I know, Rick, I know. I've just been spending like a drunken sailor, lately--no offence to drunken sailors.