Luftmensch

Modern photos, supplied by Messrs. Hardin and Wolfe. One explanation is that Hitler gave the squadron an Ehrenpokal instead of some other piece of engraved silver because Moelders never received his. That is why I am asking basic questions about the awarding of these goblets to early aces. Rgds John These came with the cup...

My questions are: 1. Did Moelders receive an Honor Goblet while he was alive? 2. Were aircrew awarded HGs for kills in Spain or in 1939 retroactively? 3. Are there many unnamed genuine HGs floating around? 4. Are there any other known squadron awards of HGs or presentation pieces from Hitler / Goering? 5. Is August 1942 significant? What month was JG 51 awarded the designation / cufftitle "Molders" ? Any information would be appreciated. Rgds John

The base...

Engraving...note incised marks inside each letter...

Close-ups...

The goblet...

The case...

Jacques, what is your source on the photo? I will post close-ups of my HG tomorrow...

If it's not the same it's a close cousin. I have to dig mine out of storage and check the alignment of the engraving. But I think you've got it--or should I say I hope you don't have another one! What's the current feeling about what this is? Rgds John

Further to the above, I ask because I acquired some years ago a cased Ehrenpokal from a Canadian museum. The goblet is unnamed but finely engraved with a posthumous presentation from Hitler to Moelders (dated August 1942) and presented to JG 51. Apparently it turned up in their baggage train in East Prussia at war's end. I'm trying to reconstruct the logic behind such an award. Hardfin & Wolfe owned the piece in the 1980s, you can still see it in the binder they take to shows. There is also a photo of it in Tom Johnson's War Booty book, Schiffer edition. I will post pictures if anybody is interested. Rgds John

Can anyone confirm whether Werner Moelders received an Ehrenpokal? Did any Spanish Civil War aces get Honor Goblets, or was it not the practice to give them retroactively for kills made years before? Rgds John

Nope, that wing dips slightly to the right when you vertically centre it...I suggest you use a plumb line, or laser pointer... Altho' I can't see the maker's mark, it looks just like my Meybauer. I vote it's "good", but keep in mind Stogie's comments, that these Turkish badges turn up constantly. Who knows when they were all made? Rgds John

Naaaah, Stogie. You can see the five-pointed star and round enamel disk in the close-up. I've seen two in my life. Tim Tezer, three. The ones that come up weekly you're thinking of are the German made ovals. I got Adrian Forman's "Luxus" badge in the mail yesterday (the one posted at the top of this thread) and a Meybauer oval...the difference is like that between lightning and a lightning bug (who said that?). C'mon down to Meadowlands with your buddy Ron B. this Saturday and I'll show ya. If you buy me a green hot dog I'll let you dribble into my Thor Becher... Rgds John

...and a fellow Canadian...how lucky can a guy get?

As for Buddecke, here's a pic of him wearing a standard German made Turkish pilot, courtesy of http://www.buddecke.de/. If you go to this site, you'll see a Sanke of him with Prussian pilot's badge, and another photo of him in Turkish rig walking down steps with the badge above. Can someone post the famous Sanke of him in fez and badge with enamel tughra to illustrate what Tim was saying? Rgds John

Great questions, Christian. Tim you have your homework cut out for you! Presumably the German jeweller is proceeding from some sort of pattern. But when describing the Turkish made badge they copied you say: 1. The German tughra is incorrect. 2. The Turkish badges are "unmarked". 3. Some Turkish made tughras are mush...some fine enough to conceal words. Do you mean the Turkish badges are unhallmarked? But most of the German badges are unhallmarked, too. I have only seen a few Meybauers. And if German and Turkish tughras both are problematic, I'm still fuzzy on how you can tell `em apart. Do these differences also apply to German vs Turkish Gallipoli Stars? Do you have any pix of Turkish made flying badges? Aren't you glad you joined? Rgds John

Thank you, Otto, for your uplifting story! Tarzan would be jealous of your English! If miracles are performed by saints, then your story is proof of decent, ordinary folk in the hobby, not out to further their own collections but help others-- the basis for a forum like this. Rgds John

No, no, no, no! Not for me! It would have to be documented up the kazoo to even consider it. I just posted this in case one of you recognized it as a chalice from your local church or a gift from Aunt Edna. Maybe with the silver shortage the Kaiser had to recycle something from the palace. Maybe the plaque covers over another inscription like Zu Wilhelm f?r hervorragende Dienste als Messknaben Rgds John

Welcome, Tim! It's good to talk to you again after these years! Butterfield's keeps sending me gun catalogs...I thought with all your influence and expertise we'd be up to an aviation auction every quarter! Thanks for your comments. I'm thinking now I've NEVER seen an actual Turkish made badge. In your email to me you called these badges "Luxusanfertigung", which is exactly the term Helmut used, only its meaning passed right over my head. Do you view these as simply "extra purchase" or were they used as presentation pieces? There were not "Luxus" versions of other flying badges offered by German mfrs. to my knowledge, esp. that so radically changed the design, so it is a strange notion to me. But I do have a cigarette box, I'm thinking as I write this, that has an observer badge that is three times as detailed as your typical Juncker. I'll photograph it when I get my digital camera back. The "Buddecke" badge with the wing canted in the other direction is in an oldtimer's collection out east. By "collection", I mean he has a bunch of wings he got together from a vet in the 1930s and glued them onto a big card. In fact, he busted the pins of several so they would glue easier. Thankfully this badge is undamaged. I think he wants an RV trailer home in trade so I'm going to have to work on him! Rgds John P.S. You have a great site. Everyone should take a tour...

NOW I remember...Tim works for Butterfield's...he held my hand when I bought a group there a few years ago...a knowledgeable, helpful guy! I emailed him...Thanks for the tip.

Thanks for sharing that great family story, Otto. I see from an old thread at the `Drome (Feb., 2005) that buying this collection was a dream come true for you. For those of us who don't know that story, could you tell us a little of how it came into your hands, with a little help from your friends? Rgds John

Thank you, Mr. Moderator! Since you and Rick left its been like Death Valley Days over in the `Drome waiting for someone to post! Unless I screwed up there's already an Aerowallah, Fliegerwallah, & Luftwallah registered over here. I can't wait to meet my namesakes. Maybe they dwell in Naziland.

Thanks, Rick, Ed. The oval Tughra I've always understood to be the German design, sold in Germany after the war. I believe badges presented in theatre were of Turkish design and manufacture, with the enamel tughra. The only other one I've handled was sold to Peter "Wing Nut" Jackson by a Canadian dealer along with a fez. I can't remember where I know Tim Tezer from. I hope he looks in. Christophe, this badge is from Forman's auction. Weitze bought several of his at the time. Now it's mine. Here are a couple more pictures of the back of each. As you can see, identical manufacture--

Hello, I posted one of these on Aerodrome with a similar query and got no joy. My original question was, we're all familiar with the German made Turkish pilots badges, but what do we know about the Turkish made ones? For example, what does the Koranic/Islamic script on the front of this Turkish made badge translate to? It is the same character on the front of the Gallipoli Star, so I believe it to be pre-1918. But I know of this varaition which has a completely different cartouche, and a smaller enamelled character. Any thoughts on what the difference signifies? Could this be a transitional piece? Helmut Weitze told me he thinks it is a secularised Kemal Ataturk period pilot's badge, but that is only a guess. Any thoughts? Any Islamic scholars? Rgds John

Hermann Historica has done it again. What "it" is I'm not exactly sure. As usual, only oral provenance, and with an uncommon but common looking soldered plaque which possibly means the silver was too thin in 1918 for engraving. Wolfgang H. sez it belonged to Lt. Georg Wolff who must have been quite a favourite with the family, but there is nothing in writing as with the MvR items in the last auction. Given the date I wonder of Manfred ever saw this, or if he was called to HQ for this goblet and then again a few days later for his Red Eagle? Interesting, but suspiciously not the usual quality of a Kaiserpreis. But if you've got 20,000+ Euros burning a hole somewhere and don't look tooooooo closely....! Rgds John A towering 16.34 inches! (41.5 cm) P.S. Years ago I saw the cased fire-gilt damascened letter opener given to Goering by the Kaiser after he took over the squadron from MvR. It was far superior to this cup in design and execution...