P.F.

I received this ribbon bar in the post a few days ago and have only gotten around to researching the ribbons on it that i did not know. I am a little unsure if the Waldeck ribbons represent medals or orders. I hope someone can help.

-Prussian War Aid Cross

-Prussian Red Cross Medal 2nd Class

-Prussian Red Cross Medal 3rd Class

-Waldeck Freidrich Bathildis Order

-Honour Cross w/o swords

-Red Cross Decoration (maybe from Weimar?)

-Waldeck Merit Order/Medal

It was only with the help of this website could i identify ribbon No.4. http://www.ordensmuseum.de/adl/bander.htm

I have never seen it before on a ribbon bar and this is what drew me to it in the first place. If anyone has a picture of this order please post it if possible.

The order of precedence to me is odd...i would have expected the other Waldeck ribbon at the end of the bar to be higher up on the bar. I though it may have been placed down there as it was a non-combatant award...but then so are most of the other awards.

I then thought it was placed there as a "foreign German" award...i.e. not from the owners State/Province...but then the other Waldeck ribbon is on the middle of the bar... I would like to hear others opinion on this.

Kind regards

Pierce

Reverse.

4-place

Reverse

Mike,

It was I who started a thread on these bars. The 2-place is genuine. The others for me are questionable. Here are the points i opened the thread with:

In general what i do not like is the mounting style and the thick brown thread used (which is very clear to be seen on the 4-place bar).....looks just like the work of the famed Austrian faker...

The combination of the 3-place i have never heard tell of...the last medal i have seen, but never on a German bar...could be possible but could be another sign of the Austrian....he likes to use exotic foreign awards on his medal bars!! Not crazy about the pin and catch on the reverse either.

The 4-place i definately do not like the pin and catch on the reverse nor the glued on makers label... And i just wouldn't be too sure of the originality of some of the medals on there either!

The owner has since replied and has stated that all medals are original. I had only questioned the originality of some of the medals on the 4-place.

Kind regards

Pierce

Try this Link and scroll down to Steiermak (Styria)

My link

josef

Thank you Josef.

Pierce

Hello all, once more. No reply as yet from Andrew at UK Militaria, must find the P.O. docket see if he has received the ribbon bar,I hope he did, I could do with a re-fund.

bye for now.

I hope you kept a proof of posting or sent it via registered means?

Did he ask you to return it to him?

Did you pay him via paypal?

Keep us posted. Any problems let ud know.

Kind regards

Pierce

Timo,

Lovely piece, congrats!

As for the 4th ribbon...not sure if any of these fit this combination but they do fit the ribbon:

-Baden Landwehr Service Decoration (1912)

-Brunswick Order of Henry the Lion

-Brunswick Cross of Merit (1879)

-Lippe Medal of Merit (1832)

Kind regards

Pierce

My thanks to both Ian and Josef for identifying the last 2 ribbons.

Josef, thank you for the brief history and the link on the Vets Organisation. The information you have provided leads me to believe that this ribbon bar was constructed between 1934 and 1938 when the Styrian Organisation was banned in Austria.

If anyone has pictures of these medals i would love to see them.

Kind regards

Pierce

Reverse.

Just got this ribbon bar in the post today. I have identified the following ribbons but the last 2 stump me. Could they be the Tyrol Commemorative Medal for 1848? Is this possible on a post-1934 ribbon bar? Or what other medals could these last 2 ribbons represent?

1. Austrian Bravery Medal

2. Austrian Military Decoration for Long Service OR Wurttemburg Bravery Medal?

3. Tyrol Commemorative Medal 1914-1918

4. Honor Cross 1914-1918

5. Hungarian Commemorative Medal 1914-1918

6. Tyrol Commemorative Medal 1848?

7. Tyrol Commemorative Medal 1848?

Combination seems strange with the Austrian ribbon first, therefore i would assume the 2nd ribbon is infact the Austrian Military Decoration for Long Service...and therefore the ribbon bar of an Austrian?

I appreciate any light that can be shed on this one.

Thank you

Pierce

Welcome to the forum John. I too think the cross is an original, very nice.

Kind regards

Pierce

Okay, thanks for the heads up, I'll post it back to UK MILITARIA Monday and ask for a refund.

many thanks

Pikestaff.

Contact the seller before posting it back, stating you require a refund as the bar was sold to you as an original (i assume) and is in fact a fake.

Also post it back via recorded post or get a proof of posting.

Best of luck

Pierce

The SS Device is a bit like this one that Matt posted a while back.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=41669

If it is anything like the other one posted on the site at the moment (and it does look to be the same construction ) then your bar is 100% FAKE!!

Here is a picture of the one for sale at the moment...going for £150!!!

Unrealistic combination (1914 EK1+1939 Spange on a 1939 EK2 Ribbon... ) fake devices and brass catch on reverse!!! Looks a lot like yours, though sharper pictures would clarify this.

I just hope you can get your money back for it.

Kind regards

Pierce

I for one found this informative. Thank you Tom.

Pierce

We were and are talking about knight's cross 1st and 2nd class of this order (WF3aX and WF3bX in Prussian rank lists).

Gilt swords do not indicate anything here as the order always had gold swords. Silver swords however must be for (Leutnant/Oberleutnant level) knight's cross 2nd class. That device is actually wrong but makes the classes clearer.

Thank you for this extra piece of useful information Saschaw.

Kind regards

Pierce

And another i have in the collection...with guilded swords!

Pierce

In the abbreviated nomenclature, the Grand Cross is 1, Commander is 2, Knight 1st Class is 3 and Knight 2nd Class is 4. This lines up with the Prussian system (such as the Red Eagle and Crown Orders) in which the classes were designated 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th instead of Grand Cross, Commander's, Knight 1st and Knight 2nd. There is a good explanation on the shorthand near the top of this category.

Ahhh...now i understand. Please pardon my ignorance gentlemen.

Best regards

Pierce

The only lower grade was the Golden Merit Medal. There were Commanders and Grand Cross Grades above the 1st & 2nd Class Knights.

Ah yes, now i know about the higher grades but not the lower grades beyond 2nd class...Ok...confused....so what are Saschaw and Wild Card talking about 3rd and 4th?

Kind regards

Pierce

Thanks Beau! These are beautiful medal bars!!

Anyone got pictures of the 3rd and 4th class?

Thanks

Pierce

I may be wrong but think this order's swords are always gold, so this can be either class. However, a sole WF3aX might be possible. More likely, of course, a WF3bX.

Firstly my thanks to Wildcard and Saschaw for replying.

Here is another bar i have with Friedrich Order with Silver Swords...making it a 2nd class?

From what you both say i am going to assume there are lower grades of the Friedrich Order? Does anyone have pictures?

Many thanks

Pierce

Another view.

Gentlemen,

I have just purchased this 2-place ribbon bar. Do the gilded swords represent a 1st Class Friedrich Order? If so would there not be more awards on this bar? The bar itself seems 100% construction-wise so not doubting its originality....just curious about the swords!

My thanks

Pierce

Or possibly a Life Saving Ribbon of the Weimar years?

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=430635

Pierce