webr55

I just got this ribbon bar, maybe for a Bremen native, with the not-too-common miniature for the Prussian Reserve/Landwehr decoration 2nd cl. It is a tab back, and the ribbon with the miniature was upside down when I got it, but I fixed this. I think the bar is original.

Chris

Glenn J said:

Medical Doctor on 23 Jul 1909

Yes! The title of his dissertation was "Über Bauchkontusionen in der Armee".

But his more important career started after the war: as a paleontologist. He undertook several excavations in Thuringia and found important dinosaur fossils. There is even a dinosaur "Ruehleia" named after him.

Rühle died in 1946.

It might be possible to find a photo of him.

Hello Kevin,

welcome to this forum. You are right: We do not always find the time to state what is exactly wrong with each bar. Most of them have obvious mistakes in combination or precedence. Some have fake ribbons or awards. Some can be dismissed due to their style. I would suggest searching the archive for "fake" and going through some of the old threads, which offer quite a good guide.

Also, there is an excellent article on ribbon bars to be found if you search for "german ribbon bars" on Google...

Chris

Hi

As a newcomer to the forum, I hope you don't all think this is too stupid a question.

Having read through this topic, it appears that there are a number of what may best be described as "creative" sellers known to you old hands, as a newcomer I would appeciate something a bit more instructive than what for me at least are rather vague references to e.g Austrian being at it again.

Whilst I fully appreciate that there is a need to be careful in what is said with regard to individuals, and I have managed (I think) to identify a couple of characters being alluded to, any info gratefully appreciated, after all, forewarned is forearmed.

Hope this hasn't come across as criticism, it certainly isn't intended to - it is a request for helpful advice.

All in all an excellent and informative site.

Thanks

Kevin

Here's one I've got:

Great discussion, and thanks very much for the solution!

Chris

Thanks!

I don't think ribbon bars ever caught on IN Russia at that time.

That's what I thought too, but wasn't sure. Austrian style, right! Does anyone have a similar example from Russia?

And what level might he have been, with those Russian orders?

The back looks like this:

Does the attachment system tell us anything?

Gentlemen,

I just have no idea what award this is:

Any ideas?

Chris

The back:

Gentlemen,

I just got this ribbon bar with Imperial Russian awards. This is not my area. Am I correct that these are St. Anne, St. Stanislaus, St. Vladimir order, Romanov anniversary 1913 and what ? (Prussian?) It looks quite German, but is this a bar for a Russian officer? What else can be said about it?

Chris

A very nice piece indeed! I think you have the ribbons correct except for #3, which in your case is probably the Greek Redeemer, though it's missing the narrow blue border stripes. Can't be anything German, in that place, I would think.

Chris

The bottom row never showed up. But Stogie once had a matching set:

Another one with Beamtenband and two inofficial medals, Crown-Prince-Rupprecht medal and Golden Wedding medal 1918. This is the top one of two rows. Might be a Zahlmeister:

A BMVK 3rd cl w/ crown X (bronze crown):

I agree. And yes, it might be a Redeemer. But as director of a chamber of agriculture, Schleh was not that obscure, I think. These chambers played quite an important role.

Also, for example, the DOA lists a Ludwig Ewald, president of the Oberrechnungskammer Darmstadt with a Bavarian Crown Order COMMANDER.

There is a published list of Bavarian Crown Order knights, but it shows only Bavarians. If anyone knows of another list, I'd be most interested.

Yes, but it was directly comparable in importance to an MMJO and only very senior and very important Bavarians got it, so I can't see an obscure Prussian civil servant with one when a plain old St. Michael would have sufficed.

If there is a list of Bavarian Crown Order knights, I've never seen one. There should be.

But I think that is the wrong thing to be looking for.

Holy Mother of God!!! What an HORRIBLE amount of time to spend on that horrible Martin Luther typeface!

BUT

even though the Lippe-Detmold (OR Schaumburg-Lippe) ribbon is in-between, I don't think that can be the Bavarian Crown Order. That gave lifetime civil knighthood as "Ritter von" just like the Military Max Joseph Order.

What that ribbon most likely is, would be a Greek Order of the Redeemer.

That is the problem with RIBBONS alone. Too many could be MORE THAN ONE THING!

Well, whatever it is, as long as he got it after the Lippe, or Schaumburg-Lippe (yes, possible too), Dr. Schleh can be my man. I didn't look for specific awards when looking through the - indeed horrible - list of names, as long as he got at least five of his awards by 1908.

BTW, I know that the Bavarian crown order gave knighthood to its recipients, but didn't that apply only to Bavarians?

Thanks for your comments!

Chris, Absolutely Wonderfull!! That way a hard strain on the eyes looking through the DOA. I am glad I was able to provide it to you. Although there are almost 1800 pages in the DOA I would like to see a spreadsheet format of it that is searchable. It would be an incredible amount of work but well work it.

I was hoping to show that. If we could let an OCR software for Gothic type do its work on the DOA, I think we could ID a lot of so far anonymous groups.

But I think it is:

6) Ökonomierat Dr. Arthur SCHLEH

He is listed with D70/71, LpDEK4, RAO4, LD2, ZM. Born in Berlin 6.10.1846, living in Münster. An "Ökonomierat" has nothing to do with economics, but is an agricultural official. I think he is the perfect candidate:

- the precedence is right: after his Prussian awards, he first put the higher ones: Lippe (Knight 2nd) came last, the Bavarian Knight (no classes) before it, and the Hessian Philip was probably a Knight 1st.

- academic background

- he was in the proper position to get awards from other states at 60+

- the Bavarian Crown Order would have been quite appropriate for him (the Bavarians have a strong tradition in agriculture), whereas the EK2 1914 for an agricultural official would have been quite unlikely

According to the CV I found in his PhD dissertation, his father was a factory owner. Arthur went to the University of Halle 1869-70, was then called for service in the 70-71 war, and went back to the University of Leipzig afterwards. He got a Dr. in agriculture from there in 1875 with a dissertation about "Über die Bedeutung des Wassers in den Pflanzen und die Regulirung desselben in unsern Culturböden".

He was then a teacher at an agricultural school in Herford and later became the first director of the chamber of agriculture Westfalen-Lippe. He also published books about the agricultural role of pigs (1904), of crows (1904) and others, up until 1920 ? so, according to his publications, he was alive in 1920.

Chris

What can I say? The whole enterprise took some time.

Here are the results:

I found only six candidates that could not be excluded immediately.

Four were Hessians, so can probably be discounted:

1) Frickhöffer, Dr. Karl, D70/71, HssP4amKr, RAO4, LD1, ZM (a doctor)

2) Imroth, Hermann, D70/71, HssP3, HssP4amKr, RAO3, LD2, ZM (an official (Baurat))

3) Lade, Ernst, D70/71, RAO4, LD2, ZM, ItKr4 (a forester)

4) Schurian, Karl Heinrich, D70/71, HssP4a, RAO4, LD2, ZM (a forester)

There is one possible Prussian forester:

5) Lorenz, Emil, D70/71, RAO4, LD2, ZM, ItKr5

Lorenz was born in Eldena/Mecklenburg in 1847, and was Forstmeister in Wohlau/Silesia. I don't see how he should have got three other non-Prussian awards as a provincial forester. Cannot be totally excluded, however.

My assumptions were:

1) He was a veteran of 70/71, but did not get the EK 1870. Too young for 1866.

2) He was a hardcore Prussian from the precedence, even the lowly 1897 medal is before Hessian and Bavarian orders.

3) In 1908, he must have been in his mid-50s, at least.

4) During WW1, he was either dead already or too old OR not in the right position to get an EK 1914. (Or this was an earlier lapel bow.)

5) So basically, I looked at all 70/71 veterans without an EK. But what about other awards? My central axiom (which can of course be questioned) was that by 1908 at least FIVE awards have to fit. I think it would be improbable if he got half of his awards beyond the age of 55.

There was only one way to go (one thing less to do before I die. ):

1734 pages of the Ordensalmanach 1908/09 lay before me.

(BTW, this could never have been done without Paul's digital version of the DOA.)

Some risks had to be taken:

- He might have not had himself listed -> tough luck, but relatively improbable, I think. Someone with so many awards was probably in there.

- He might have died before 1908 -> tough luck!

- He might have got half of his awards after 1908 -> tough luck! (see #5 below)

The back.

From the combination, especially with the Bavarian civil order, this should be a civilian who maybe was in some academic position. Un-IDable, you say?

First, I looked through some ranklists for reserve officers. No luck.

A happy new year to all members!

I would like to start 2007 by posting a case that took me a while. I bought this nice Godet lapel bow from Stogie sometime ago:

The ribbons are:

1) RAO4 (judging from the other awards, probably not an AEZ)

2) D70/71

3) Centen 1897

4) Prussian LS (probably LD2 or LD1)

5) Hessian HP4 (Knight 1st or 2nd)

6) probably a Bavarian Crown Order for Civil Merit, Knight

7) Lippe Honor Cross (Knight 1st or 2nd)

8) Italian Crown Order (Knight or Officer)

Maybe this one as well, with the Lippe rolls:

Great work, Rick!

I think it is Hermann J?RGENS, Braunschweig.

This thread is a good idea!

Chris