JapanX

Yep. That settles it. Anyway, this is one nice looking badge. Best regards, Nick

Hi Jef sorry, but this nice pin has nothing to do with the rising sun order. Looks like this one belongs to the organizational badges section. Sacred mirror with rising sun in the center ... It may be one of these Service Association Foundation badges (?) Although the center looks different. But maybe it is because of the size of your badge? Cheers, Nick

A little add-on just to make my point perfectly clear to all our colleagues. Weighty argument for hypothesis #2 will be that official coat of arms of Persia since 16th century till 1907 was standing lion with the sword (the picture could be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_arms_of_Persia_(16th_century_-_1907).png). A little modification happened only in 1907 (the picture could be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_arms_of_Iran,_Qajar_Dynasty_(1907-1925).png) So it will be quite natural to assume that Persians get their orders with national emblem and foreigners get modified and more peaceful version of emblem. But what about military/civil division you might ask me? Well, according to my information all foreigners got their lions on plain green ribbon. Persians got theirs in three different colors - Blue, Red and White subject to their merits. Unfortunately I don't have info about definition of each color. For exceptional merits diamonds might be added to the first class signs. Persians were awarded by this order quite rare (as compared to foreigners) - that's why standing lion version is much more scare (at least for period 1808-1907) than lying lion version. Often this order was used by Persian officials as implicit bribe to Russian and French officials. You could actually buy yourself a bestowal back in 19 century. That's why rewarding by this order was often ridiculed in Imperial Russia. But every English language source states that standing lion with sword = military division and lying lion = civil division. Well I think that this perception is wrong and was created by everlasting tradition sword=military. But in the case of lions this tradition may play a mean trick with us. Will be waiting for your comments dear colleagues. Cheers, Nick

To sum up Hypothesis # 1 Lying lion = civil division Standing lion with sword = military division Hypothesis # 2 Lying lion = for foreigners Standing lion with sword = for subjects (i.e. Persians) The first express test for plausibility if these two hypothesis will be a authentic medal bar with lion for military foreigner. I will look into it Best regards, Nick

Well, let me put it this way. Imagine you are a military man and you are a foreigner... Where we will put sword for your lying lion I guess the only suitable place will be right next to him Of course if persian/foreigner = standing/lying. Actually this is a serious issue. For me at least They call lying lion version "for christians" in Russia because they are using Imperial Russia division of orders (or they are thinking only in terms Persian/Russian receiptor). And of course in case with lions the using of this term "for Christians" is wrong, because if this version (lying lion) indeed was awarded to foreigners, then it was awarded without any faith distinction.

This is one strange auction-house... You can't even pinch the pictures (believe me I tried!)... I mean this is plain wrong Non-phaleristic at least!!! Cheers, Nick

I am asking because all Russian sources (including Internet one http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Орден_Льва_и_Солнца ) confirmed this view: Sword=military Convenient, habitual stereotype ... But does it works in this case? Just wonder ;)

Well Mark you sure gonna like these ones https://www.winkler-auktion.de/auktionen/auktion2/Nachlass_eines_hohen_persischen_osmanischen_Offiziers/Persien_Sonnen_und_Loewen_Orden_2_e.html https://www.winkler-auktion.de/auktionen/auktion2/Nachlass_eines_hohen_persischen_osmanischen_Offiziers/Persien_Sonnen_und_Loewen_Orden_3_e.html https://www.winkler-auktion.de/auktionen/auktion2/Nachlass_eines_hohen_persischen_osmanischen_Offiziers/Persien_Sonnen_und_Loewen_Orden_4_e.html There they call them "for persian military personal"... Which is again sounds a little strange to me... More likely "for Persians"... No?

Mark could you tell me why you call this type "military"? I am asking because I was under the impression that Lying lion = for foreigners (sometimes they call it "for Christians" in Russia) Standing lion with sword = for subjects (i.e. Persians) Cheers, Nick

Gavin, I rechecked my info and it seems that you are right. ET was used for silver items from 1864 till 1893, and since then SWAN mark was in use. But I will recheck this again, because one of my fellow collectors just recently mentioned 1864-1893 period for SWAN mark. And he is from old guards Regards, Nick

Nice Markus! :beer:

Emmanuel is certainly right and if I may add - this mark was used between 1864 an 1893. Also not only for "every item that is to be sold on auction", but also for every imported silverware. Cheerio, Nick P.S. More precisely this mark was introduced on 1st June 1864 and was used on silver articles imported into France from countries without Customs Conventions. Its use was discontinued on 1st June 1893 as it was now stipulated that all imported gold and silver should comply with the same conditions as that was manufactured in France.

Well, our today’s finds could mean only one thing – the glassier, transparent blue enamel couldn’t be the exclusive feature of “late” pillars. That is if mint history books give us accurate information about Manchukuo Mint manufacturing activities and/or only “lower classes” manufacturing activity of Manchukuo Mint. And if their information is correct, then we didn’t saw true late-Manchukuo-made pillars. Do they actually exist? That’s what I call top-class MyStErY… To be continued … Cheerio, Nick

Reverses

Obverses

And now another comparison. One piece from previous compilation and a newcomer. A newcomer has polished reverse, but I don’t know if it is marked M.

Reverses

Obverses

Let’s take a look at these two beauties. Both marked M. Both have polished reverses. Actually I have some doubts about piece on the left – it could be 3rd class badge.

So now we have no doubts about the actual class distribution of this main stable feature of “late” pillars. Wait buster!!! What about one more class!? 1st class?! Well, let me remind you that the order of pillars of the state has very interesting feature – the badge for 1st class has the exact same size (63 mm approximately) as badge for 3rd class. So it will be quite natural to assume, that if we observe “late” features in case of 3rd classes, then these “late” features will be observed in case of 1st classes as well. But of course I made some inquiries. Well all three 1st class badges that I have a chance to examine had “early” features. Let me show you.

Reverses

Octahedrons

I think it’s obvious that we observe same old “glassier, transparent enamel in central octahedron” pattern. And another exhibit – this time comparison of central octahedrons of two breast stars. One star is classical “early” breast star with polished reverse and another is late one (we just saw it).

Comparison

Any doubts this time? If so, then allow me to show you this compilation.