JapanX

Cental octahedrons of 5th class orders badges.

Looks familiar? Allow me to remind you how cental octahedrons will look like for lower classes. These two 5th class pieces will help us with this.

Let`s take a close look at the cental octahedron.

Reverses

Obverses

Ok. Let me explain in every detail why I asked Rich about the true meaning of this sentence. For this let`s examine two beatiful 3rd class pillars of the state. One marked M (so its definitly was made in Japan) and the other unmarked (with specific features of allegedly late-Manchukou badges.

Well the badge looks like its from Meiji and the box matched with it pretty well. Cheers, Nick

Well the seller is right! It's a commemorative piece for Russo-Japanese war. It was issued by patriotic women's association (aikoku fujinkai). The emblem of this association is on the cover of the box. The number of these is not known and I believe never will be. Nice boxed specimen Miro! Cheers, Nick

Hi Miro Well (whereas that I don't see all the enamel work, but I see the ribbon and a box) I think this piece came straight from Meiji era and bow rosette will suit it pretty well Cheers, Nick

Well this is another two pieces in mint conditions! Especially interesting the early one. And I think it was made a little bit earlier than before WWII. Judging by the box (which would be really risky, if this piece wasn't marked). I think this box type (kanji style) were in use not only during Meiji, but during Taisho period (at least!) and probably even during early Showa (!). That's why many pieces from 10-30 period of time are often wrongly attributed as Meiji pieces. Well this is another topic for another irresponsible poor researched thread and I think I'll pass

Well. I am heartbroken (to say the least)! I thought I am your sidekick in all these mystery cases! Well let's wait for the others ;)

Well. This is one darn good Meiji 8th class! Really nice condition! Nice! And a nice "red stripes" early ribbon! And if you ask me I think that this piece is a little bit older than you think Why do you think that it is WWI piece?

Well this is really interesting unusual box + marked badge in excellent conditions + marked rosette. Very nicely done! Guess somebody just came back from Japan and this somebody definitely not me This box is really mysterious one. And very accurately made. The badge is from late 20s/early 30s with very nice color pattern of the jewels. Cool!

Ok. This happened for the second time in the same thread Should be faster... Well I'll catch up

Yes, yes I forget about dove-correctness You are way too trustful If there were any production of orders and medals, thеn it happen no sooner than 1943. At least according to Japan Mint history. I think that all medals indeed were manufactured in Japan. Only badges and orders (?) were the lucky ones.

I agree. This is strange. This shortage of red cross documents.

I believe the medals were still made by Japan Mint (if they were able to manufacture high quality orders even in 1946, then they shouldn't had any problems with that in late 40s or early 50s (if not by Japan Mint then by the same private manufacturer as before war). At least this is standard very high quality - that's for sure. And boxes, buttons and ribbons were made by private workshops. And this type of box were made in small numbers by some workshop. As to the 1946 boxes - they have usual pre and post war superb quality and they are not from war stock, because they have gold kanji on the cover However, we don't know when and why these changes (from gold to silver and then back to gold kanji) occurred! The earliest estimate for silver kanji pieces is 1941 and the later one 1944 (1945?). And another thing - back in early 40s there could be a few different manufacturers of boxes - one of them used silver kanji and the other gold kanji. As for the date of creation of these boxes... 100% authentic documented group is still in great demand. Cheers, Nick P.S. Still amazed by the similarity between these two boxes!

Well. Here comes the answer. "The medals were struck at the Osaka Mint and by private Japanese firms and the ribbons were also made in Japan" Peterson, 3rd edition, p.136 And in light of the last amazing discoveries made by Rich I think it is very truthful statement. The differences in design may be attributed to two different manufacturers in Japan. Cheers, Nick

Yes, of course you are right and the lower classes have always been 7 and 8. My hypothesis (lower= 4-8 classes) was based on the simple logic: since 4-8 classes have identical badges, then one who is able to make 8 class will be able to make 4 class (he just will need a little gilt + two enameled bars). In addition all these classes (4-3) are having same "late production" pattern. But then again 3rd class has it too (enamel pattern + reverse pattern) Isn't it strange? Cheers, Nick

Indeed this is two very nice specimens in excellent conditions! Congratulation on the second one! Ok. Got some mystery for you. Some guys say this is actually Manchuko Mint made medal and that's why it is much rarer. They called this one "thin dove Manchu variation" (isn't it nice?). Take a wild guess how they call the early one? But pssssssss. Don't tell anyone. P.S. And I couldn't say as firmly as Peterson that "thin dove" is rarer than "fat dove". I personally saw more slim ones than fatties. P.S. Well, Miro was quicker than me! (he posted his observations (that are completely coincided with my own) during my slow and illiterate typing:))

Thanks a lot Rich! Very interesting and important info!!! My guess "lower classes" will be 4,5,6,7 and 8 classes (they are practically identical except for the gilt/no gilt). But do they actually made them or just had intentions to begin production? Is the phrase in the book could be clearly interpreted? What do you think Rich? And another thought - 3rd class pieces have same enamel and reverse allegedly "late" features as 4-8 classes. So maybe "lower" means 3-8 classes? I don't recall any 1st or 2nd class pieces that have these "late" patterns. But I will recheck this. I wonder how many pieces in lower classes were actually made in Manchuko in the last two years... Not much - this is for sure... If any at all...(especially if we'll remember the golden kites production story) Anyway - amazingly surprising information Rich. So they actually were trying to made something on their own... Big mistake! It never worked in this region At least it never worked right in Mongolia And what timing! 1943! Everything is falling apart. Maybe all this nonsense was initiated by Japan Mint as some kind outsourcing decision for the hard times? Because I don't think that back in 1943 the last emperor has any illusions about his status and status of his country. Regards, Nick

Well, sure thing this box came from same workshop as previous one for the lady's. No doubt about it. Same everything. Same terrible spacing, same terrible carvings... Are you sure this is another box? Congrats on this one! Still have my doubts about precise dating of these boxes. I don't think that actual economic conditions were behind their creation (well, boxes from 1946 are excellent and have golden kanji on them - I just couldn't believe that 1956-1960 period was worse than 1945-1946 ) Workshop specific work style maybe. Cheers, Nick

Guess you are a little bit upset (irritated? ) by all my activity. You got that wrong Paul. I don't try to enchance my credibility. I am no dealer I am a collector who is trying to communicate with his fellow collectors. And what we've got here is failure to communicate. It will be really nice if you'll point me my ignorance and twisting cases. Because indeed I am one very poor collector and very poor researcher And my questions. Any hope? Or digestion? What?! Again?! Best regards, Nick

My pleasure, Miro. Regards, Nick

Oval badge with white enamel? I think we are talking about this one. There is a whole family of these badges out there. It is "on the occasion of ..." badges. Association started issuing them in the 80s. An occasion/event is typically annual meeting of town (prefecture/national) branch or Emperor visit to one of the branches or some anniversary...etc. The reason and date of issue are usually stamped in reverse. Badges are quite uniform. Always white background, association badge, something green (some plant as symbol of life) and sometimes salutatory kanji. They are made from white alloy. I am aware about existence at least 4 different badges of this type, but of course there are many more of them out there somewhere. Close relatives of these badges are commemorative sake bottles, cups, vases, lighters, tie pins, cuff links, etc... with badge association emblem on them and (very rare - mainly on vases and cups) information about commemorative event. Cheers, Nick