JapanX

Hmmm. I really like the ribbon... Nice one. And I think that larger mirror as sign of Meiji epoch for 7 and 8 classes will be a nice feature, but bigger diameter of jewels on perimeter will be even better Anyway this is for sure one nice oDld piece!

Interior

Miro, this one will be ideal box for your type 4.1 badge :)

Well I think we all agree - this is same enamel pattern. Most profoundly this pattern could be seen in blue lines. That`s why I think the only really stable sign of allegedly "late" pieces is enamel shade of cental octahedrons (reverse pattern is not that stable, although pieces with M mark in higher classes (1-3) usually have polished reverses and visa versa). This is one and only thing that we really have for identification of "late" pieces. But as for today we have no hard proof evidence that exactly these pieces with such enamel pattern were created by Manchukou Mint. But if there indeed were pieces actually manufactured by Manchukou Mint, then these pieces are the first candidates for this role.

Cental octahedrons of 5th class orders badges.

Looks familiar? Allow me to remind you how cental octahedrons will look like for lower classes. These two 5th class pieces will help us with this.

Let`s take a close look at the cental octahedron.

Reverses

Obverses

Ok. Let me explain in every detail why I asked Rich about the true meaning of this sentence. For this let`s examine two beatiful 3rd class pillars of the state. One marked M (so its definitly was made in Japan) and the other unmarked (with specific features of allegedly late-Manchukou badges.

Well the badge looks like its from Meiji and the box matched with it pretty well. Cheers, Nick

Well the seller is right! It's a commemorative piece for Russo-Japanese war. It was issued by patriotic women's association (aikoku fujinkai). The emblem of this association is on the cover of the box. The number of these is not known and I believe never will be. Nice boxed specimen Miro! Cheers, Nick

Hi Miro Well (whereas that I don't see all the enamel work, but I see the ribbon and a box) I think this piece came straight from Meiji era and bow rosette will suit it pretty well Cheers, Nick

Well this is another two pieces in mint conditions! Especially interesting the early one. And I think it was made a little bit earlier than before WWII. Judging by the box (which would be really risky, if this piece wasn't marked). I think this box type (kanji style) were in use not only during Meiji, but during Taisho period (at least!) and probably even during early Showa (!). That's why many pieces from 10-30 period of time are often wrongly attributed as Meiji pieces. Well this is another topic for another irresponsible poor researched thread and I think I'll pass

Well. I am heartbroken (to say the least)! I thought I am your sidekick in all these mystery cases! Well let's wait for the others ;)

Well. This is one darn good Meiji 8th class! Really nice condition! Nice! And a nice "red stripes" early ribbon! And if you ask me I think that this piece is a little bit older than you think Why do you think that it is WWI piece?

Well this is really interesting unusual box + marked badge in excellent conditions + marked rosette. Very nicely done! Guess somebody just came back from Japan and this somebody definitely not me This box is really mysterious one. And very accurately made. The badge is from late 20s/early 30s with very nice color pattern of the jewels. Cool!

Ok. This happened for the second time in the same thread Should be faster... Well I'll catch up

Yes, yes I forget about dove-correctness You are way too trustful If there were any production of orders and medals, thеn it happen no sooner than 1943. At least according to Japan Mint history. I think that all medals indeed were manufactured in Japan. Only badges and orders (?) were the lucky ones.

I agree. This is strange. This shortage of red cross documents.

I believe the medals were still made by Japan Mint (if they were able to manufacture high quality orders even in 1946, then they shouldn't had any problems with that in late 40s or early 50s (if not by Japan Mint then by the same private manufacturer as before war). At least this is standard very high quality - that's for sure. And boxes, buttons and ribbons were made by private workshops. And this type of box were made in small numbers by some workshop. As to the 1946 boxes - they have usual pre and post war superb quality and they are not from war stock, because they have gold kanji on the cover However, we don't know when and why these changes (from gold to silver and then back to gold kanji) occurred! The earliest estimate for silver kanji pieces is 1941 and the later one 1944 (1945?). And another thing - back in early 40s there could be a few different manufacturers of boxes - one of them used silver kanji and the other gold kanji. As for the date of creation of these boxes... 100% authentic documented group is still in great demand. Cheers, Nick P.S. Still amazed by the similarity between these two boxes!

Well. Here comes the answer. "The medals were struck at the Osaka Mint and by private Japanese firms and the ribbons were also made in Japan" Peterson, 3rd edition, p.136 And in light of the last amazing discoveries made by Rich I think it is very truthful statement. The differences in design may be attributed to two different manufacturers in Japan. Cheers, Nick

Yes, of course you are right and the lower classes have always been 7 and 8. My hypothesis (lower= 4-8 classes) was based on the simple logic: since 4-8 classes have identical badges, then one who is able to make 8 class will be able to make 4 class (he just will need a little gilt + two enameled bars). In addition all these classes (4-3) are having same "late production" pattern. But then again 3rd class has it too (enamel pattern + reverse pattern) Isn't it strange? Cheers, Nick

Indeed this is two very nice specimens in excellent conditions! Congratulation on the second one! Ok. Got some mystery for you. Some guys say this is actually Manchuko Mint made medal and that's why it is much rarer. They called this one "thin dove Manchu variation" (isn't it nice?). Take a wild guess how they call the early one? But pssssssss. Don't tell anyone. P.S. And I couldn't say as firmly as Peterson that "thin dove" is rarer than "fat dove". I personally saw more slim ones than fatties. P.S. Well, Miro was quicker than me! (he posted his observations (that are completely coincided with my own) during my slow and illiterate typing:))

Thanks a lot Rich! Very interesting and important info!!! My guess "lower classes" will be 4,5,6,7 and 8 classes (they are practically identical except for the gilt/no gilt). But do they actually made them or just had intentions to begin production? Is the phrase in the book could be clearly interpreted? What do you think Rich? And another thought - 3rd class pieces have same enamel and reverse allegedly "late" features as 4-8 classes. So maybe "lower" means 3-8 classes? I don't recall any 1st or 2nd class pieces that have these "late" patterns. But I will recheck this. I wonder how many pieces in lower classes were actually made in Manchuko in the last two years... Not much - this is for sure... If any at all...(especially if we'll remember the golden kites production story) Anyway - amazingly surprising information Rich. So they actually were trying to made something on their own... Big mistake! It never worked in this region At least it never worked right in Mongolia And what timing! 1943! Everything is falling apart. Maybe all this nonsense was initiated by Japan Mint as some kind outsourcing decision for the hard times? Because I don't think that back in 1943 the last emperor has any illusions about his status and status of his country. Regards, Nick