Mervyn Mitton

I have a feeling that Camberwell was the Divisional Station for 'M' Division - perhaps one of our members can help my memory out ? If I am right - then the Chief Superintendent will be one of the figures at the table. Tony - the chain you talk about is the watch chain on the centre figure in plain clothes. Whistles for this uniform had the hook in the 2nd. button hole from the top - the chain hung down alongside the tunic crossover and the whistle was in a small pocket just inside the tunic. They were part of the uniform and I can't think of any reason that they are not being worn ? Lovely old photo. Mervyn

Tony - a very interesting old photo. The men in suits at the table are probably Detectives - probably officers. To the left of them are Station Inspectors. There are also some civilians in the group - perhaps workers at the Station. On the outside right are men in uniforms holding musical instruments - they have different caps and are presumably a band. Lying on his side at the front is a uniformed man with a cap - I wouldn't have thought an Inspector would lay like this - so perhaps he is a gaoler ? With the clocks on the table I would, personally, think this to be a retirement ceremony for a couple of older Policemen who were leaving. Anybody have other thoughts ? p.s. The men behind the table could of course, be senior officers' in plain clothes. What I do find strange is that no-one is wearing his whistle.....

The chronology would seem to be that a dot was after the name until the outbreak of WW2. When H.M.S. alone was discontinued when War ended, for some reason the dot was not re-instated.

The silver belt buckle and silver bullion belt. Underneath is one of the sword straps - also in silver bullion.

The Bi-Corne.

Since we have been having a look at different styles of bi-corne hats - I thought this would fit into the groups. This is the pattern for a Deputy Lord Lieutenant of a British County. They are the Sovereign's representitive and meet all senior members of the Royal Family when they visit their County. This one - and it's uniform, were made for the funeral of Queen Victoria in 1901 - the black crepe mourning arm band is still in the pocket. This is the tunic with it's magnificent hand embroiderd bullion at neck and on sleeves. Under the belt and over the shoulder are the sword straps in silver bullion - they are only like this to show the detail.

Robin - several people would like to think either Scotland or Ireland predate the Metropolitan Police. Unfortunately they were no more then Town Police - and several English Towns were just as well organised - even at that time. The fact is that the Met. were the first civilian police force in the World to be organised in such strength and with new methods.

Gordon - I'm wondering if you've seen the 14 page thread under Brit. Badges - a wonderful group of info.. Mervyn

I would have said for the inter war years - 1920-39. The blue cap was for Home Service and cold weather. White for the tropics.

Jeffskea and Michael - we should have welcomed you both to GMIC. Good post which has attracted some informed comment.

Following on from the last post - which showed an early percussion pistol used by the British Police - I thought I would add these few remaining pieces from my collection. Remembering that the first British Force was the Metropolitan Police - who went on duty in 1829 - you could reasonably expect that there would be hundreds of old weapons in antique shops. This is not the case - prior to the Meropolitan there was a system of Parish Constables, Night Watchmen and Town Constables. They usually carried a stave - and if firearms were required they were either private - or, borrowed from the local Militia. The system changed during Victorian times and swords and pistols were usually held in the major police stations. However, the ones shown here are from an earlier period and have been identified as having links with the early Constabulary. Top left - a pistol for the County of Cheshire. Right : Double barreled percussion - of a type used by Inspectors in the Metropolitan Police. Centre left: Manstopper - heavy bore used by Birmingham Police. Right: a pocket Flintlock and on left a percussion pistol. Early detectives often carried these pocket pistols.

Hi - Chris. Makes very interesting reading - and in many ways follows early Colonial policing under British rule. In fact very similar to some of our S.A. Forces. Any chance of some modern and current photos of uniforms, vehicles and specialised equipment ? Mervyn

"WARSPITE" - a famous name for the British Navy , and as you say there were 9 of them in all. The most recent H.M.S.Warspite - and almost certainly the one your cap came from - was launched in 1913. After fitting out She was commissioned in 1915 and saw distinguished service in WW1 - including the Battle of Jutland. She was a Queen Elizabeth class battleship and weighed in excess of 33,000 tons. The crew varied but was about 1100 on a war footing. Her armament was the new 15 inch gun (42 cm) and she carried 8 in 4 turrets. She had an extensive re-fit in 1934. Her service in WW2 was exceptional and she served all over the World - she was badly damaged in one action and again, re-fitted in New York. WARSPITE was de-commissioned in 1945 - and eventually scrapped in 1947.

A lovely set of medals, Will. You were lucky to have so much information. (I deleted the double post).

I agree with Jeff - even if the recipient has passed-on, immediate family do not part easily with medals. I think this applies generally to most people of British background - and certainly applies in South Africa. There are of course many exceptions - and sometimes they are sold quickly out of necessity - and often greed !

Brian - some very interesting research and a long time since I've seen the history of Police Helmets thoroughly explored. There should be many more threads to be added - including Women Police and New Zealand and Gibralter. I am not sure that I agree with the Wolseley helmet being the catylist for this new helmet - they came much later. I have always understood that the British Army adopted a pattern of helmet from Prussia - presumably the old blue spiked helmet - and that the Metropolitan Police experimented. Once they adopted it , then other Forces copied - but it took time. The Met. Police pattern is known as a Bell pattern and the top metal crown is the Rose. However, the pattern used after Top Hats had an upwards turned peak - sadly, no examples have survived. I do agree with Stuart that the ventilation on the Coxscombe helmet could have come from the airpipe type Wolseley. The Home Office laid down that only these three pattern helmets could be used. I hope that members with helmet collections will start posting some examples - even if they have been on before your Post will give reference. Well done - Mervyn. This drawing shows the first of the new helmets - with the tunic that took over from the swallow tailed coattees. (credit to Bob Marrion for drawing)

Hi - Stuart. You have started a splendid new Post - and one that , hopefully, will be added to by other members with an interest in Australia. Brett's recent post should also attract a lot of interest - particularly with his medal links. I am going to see if Brian agrees with me that your post will be better on the Australian section - below this one. Nick added two new Forums to allow members to go directly into their particular interest.

Hi - Craig. That's a good thought - Stuart probably knows more about their Dress Regs. ?

Nick - in a short time you have put together an excellent representitive collection. I was particularly impressed with their condition - you have chosen well. Two small points which would have made your presentation here a little more forceful - put each pistol on as a separate thread. I have noticed quite a few members do the link bit - but, it doesn't make the same impact - or, get the attention that individual pictures do. The other advantage is that you can tailor the description to go with the picture - rather then just a heading. This does not detract - in any way - from the collection and we must hope you will continue to show the other pieces you mention. Mervyn

Mayors' and Aldermen wear a cocked hat with fur trimmed robes - but, I don't recall plumes. I always find these bicorne hats interesting - they started off as three sided Tricornes in the 18th C. Became Bi-cornes - but were worn sideways - or, as the Navy put it 'athwartships'. This apparantly was uncomfortable and they were then worn fore and aft.

I can remember some posts on Psychops units - was at the bottom of the Forum - will see if I can find it. These are very unusual - and I don't think you will have a problem with them 'flooding-in' ? The badges on their own are a little lost - can you add some detail on each one so that we know what we are looking at ? Mervyn ************** I have looked up the site. Same panel as LOUNGE. WEBSITES. Go down 20 entries to WORLDWIDE PSYOPS. Hope this will be of some interest ?

Hello, Nick - and as Brian has said - welcome to GMIC. Very nice to see a pistol that can be linked to a Police Force - most of the early ones were borrowed from the military. A named one - or , with some written proof - is a rare item. The 'Manstopper' - so named for it's tremendous stopping power with a large ball and a big gunpowder charge - was popular with early Police - also, Customs, Prisons - and the Navy also favoured them. One of it's advantages was that it was big enough to reverse and use as a club in an emergency. I will be posting in a few days - under Firearms - a few early pistols from my remaining collection. One of them - also from Birmingham is similar to yours - perhaps a little smaller in bore. We will look forward to seeing other weapons from your collection on the Firearms section. Merthyr Tydfil seems to have been established in the 1840's - this would have been under the Permissive Act of 1838. This ties in nicely with the percussion cap action.

Brett - May I offer my congratulatons for a most interesting article - and one filled with facts and information. I think this will become a valuable reference piece for the future. Many of our Colonies and Dominions developed their defences along similar lines - how good it would be to have similar articles for other Countries and including a similar time period ? Brian and I , are hoping to develop a section for articles from invited guests - I think this will be high on our list - with your permission ?

Brian - to me it has a slightly Italian look ? However, without this hilt I would say British Police for sure. I wouldn't have thought it worth the trouble of making such an elaborate item - you're the expert on materials - would a lot of work have been involved ? Perhaps someone will recognise it and we will find the design has been taken from the Brit. version ? Certainly that circular finger retainer does not feature in British swords.

No - not to my memory - however, I do remember it being quite heavy. There is one thing to remember with official passes - The Metropolitan Police have used quality ones - from the earliest days - to indicate importance. Mayne and Rowan - the first two joint Commissioners carried Gold identification badges and these have continued to the present. The Comm. and the Deputy Commissioner are still identified by a gold pass - and in addition they are both still sworn in as JP's (Justices of the Peace). This was very necessary when a magistrate was required to read the Riot Act in public - and the Civilian ones had usually made a run for-it ! At least you could push the Comm. forward and hold him in place. I always remember a long and tiring march following the 'Bloody Sunday' incident in Belfast. The marchers were very militant and were carrying 13 coffins at the front. We were far too few in number and spaced about every 100 yards during the march. When we were going down Haymarket, I spotted the Comm. and Dep. Comm. in a shop doorway watching - very smart in overcoats and Bowler hats ! I made a point of saluting - which drew the marchers attention + a few well chosen words..... Probably why I never got my BEM ?