Mervyn Mitton

Stuart - to me, the Dragon on the button looks more like a supporter. Another interesting point you made was in the length of the swans feathers for different ranks. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner - equivalent in rank to a full general - does wear the full plumes. However, I have a bi-corne for either a Dep. Comm. or, an Asst. Comm. (lt.Gen. and Maj.Gen. respectively) and it has only 6 inch ones - also, the underlaying feathers are a navy blue. I have no memory of buying this hat and whilst I have on occasion bought military helmets, my collecting instincts have always been British Police. So - I am thinking - did I buy it originally for a police connection ? This could account for the different lace and also - the button. This may be the Corporation Arms for the Town, Borough or, City. I will have a look through my refs. on British Corporation Heraldry - and perhaps one of our members may recognise the dragon ?

The finish has not dulled - could it have been gilded ?

Looking at this sword I would normally say it was a 'D' pattern British Constabulary pattern hangar - dating from around 1850. However, the hilt is so different that there can only be three possible explanations - a) Grips were changed at the whims of a Chief Constable ? b) The original handle was damaged and someone has gone to considerable trouble to make their own - but look at all the hand scaling ? c) This was made in an overseas country for Military or, police use. This was amongst photos recently sent from my collection - and to the best of my memory there are no marks. Has anyone ever seen a short sword of this type - with a similar grip ?

Don't know if this will help - I think I can see traces of red amongst the bullion ? Is that a winged dragon on the left of the button ?

Tom - thankyou for your comments - and particularly for the link to the old report of the Day. The Pass does sound to be similar to the Press Pass' - however, the report mentions that thay are numbered and were under 600 in number. This one has no number and I suspect that the design was a universal one - with alterations for the exact purpose. This could account for the gold surround ? The letters ERCB are still a mystery, but whichever Authority they stood for - they do seem to be for London. I must say that this report is a fine historical document and comments on the Social angle - which is unusual. Under the historical photographs sub-forum - we had a long correspondence on photos from Queen Victoria's funeral procession. This could almost cover both processions - and in all cases the greed and rapaciousness of the seat and window vendors , matches present practises. I WOULD RECOMMEND READING THIS LINK FOR AN INSIGHT INTO LIFE IN 1897 - that is, providing your eyesight is good..........

Plate from the tin box.

Whilst we have Stuart in an answering mood - here is a question for all of our headdress collectors. Who was this man - what was his rank with this bi-corne hat - can we identify his Regt. from the dress button ? We have some clues - there is a photo of his name plate from the jappaned tin carrier - however, the hat may have been for a later and higher rank ? I must have had this for many years as I had forgotten about-it. Photos have just been sent from my collection in the UK - I would say Army - rather than Police. However, in the early days many retired military officers were appointed as senior police.

For the Diamond Jubilee (60) of Queen Victoria in 1897 there were enormous official celebrations - including major parades through London. We see many of the Police Jubilee medals - however, this is the first time I have seen an official pass. Obviously to someone of importance - it is 9ct. gold, I can only think of a Chief Constable. However, what do these initials mean ? I am thinking along the lines of East Riding Constabulary Board - but, then why a Pass. Was the Parade in - perhaps - Leeds. Or, did East Yorks send a contingent to London - a big possibilitity ? Please put your thinking caps on and see if we can find the answer to something that has puzzled me for 30 years ?

Another lapel badge - WW1 period - for the records. This is for East Sussex Constabulary - which I think includes Brighton. This would account for the Royal Arms - being a Royal Borough. King George 4th. had his famous Pavillion there for entertaining the local and imported - tarts He was a very dissolute 'piece of work'..

All of these pointers are important - although for me it is the stippling. Very few of the copies get it evenly - and I - personally - would be having another look at this one. Also, Jeff mentions a shorter cross bar on an 'E'. Most of these are fine - however, the 'E' at the end of Europe does have a shorter cross bar - a little odd ! I also find the overall finish a little 'off putting'. Sorry, but you did ask. Often handling is the best way to determine authenticity - let's see what other members think ? We've said it before - this is the most highly forged WW2 medal - and at present prices worth their evil efforts.

Brett - can't you just re-write a few sections. I think it would make a fascinating article - in fact, Brian and I are looking for guest contributors for the British sections. You could be the start ....... However, on that topic - how about some contributors for - Australia - New Zealand - Canada - India etc.. ? Going back to the Sth. African Navy - I have the family silver for the Natal Dep.Governor - around 1900 . He was asked to go to the UK and Launch H.M.S. NATAL. She was a light cruiser.

The right side of the certificate.

I will show the certificate split in two to make the details larger. ACROSS TOP: 1829 Metropolitan helmet plate. Cypher for King George Vth. 1929 DOWN LEFT SIDE : The Watchman ; Bow Street Horse Patrol ; Police Telephone Box ; Lantern/Truncheons/Rattle/Arm Band. ACROSS BOTTOM : Old Scotland Yard - 1829 ; Thames River Police 1786 ; Peel House, Metropolitan Police Training School. (I was in the last intake in 1967) ; Metropolitan Police River Police 1929 ; New Scotland Yard 1929. DOWN RIGHT SIDE : Bow Street Runner ; Mounted Police ; Flying Squad (Prob. a Bentley at this date ); Torch (or, Beer mug?)/Truncheons;Arm Bands/Torch. CENTRAL PICTURES : Sir Richard Mayne (Commissioner in 1829 with Colonal Rowan) ; Sir Robert Peel - Home Secretary in 1829. The other people look to be past Commissioners. Using the side pictures as themes, I will do a series of short articles on each.

Eighty two years ago the World famous Metropolitan Police celebrated their first 100 years. Quite an achievement when it is remembered how unpopular they were when first founded. The Public thought that they were to be an 'Arm of Government' to suppress rights and freedom. They were in fact about to be the first civilian Police Force - and would be copied by Countries around the World. Many were the official banquets and parades to mark this occasion - however, it is these small commemorative certificates (A4 size) which were handed to every serving officer - which have preserved the day - as if in a time capsule. Over the 100 year span they have shown the buildings, the equipment, the different Branches and the First Commissioners and - of course - the Home Secretary, Sir Robert Peel. They would have been carefully framed and preserved for the families of proud officers' to show to visitors - but, alas - time has taken it's toll on men and their certificates and they are now very rare items. This is the only one I have ever had offered for my collection. I loaned items for exhibitions on our 150th anniversary and hope that in 2029 you - just might - think back to this certificate from 1929.....

Thankyou Dieter - I will pass the links to the friend who owns this sword and hopefully, they will take him further forward. Brian - your words are 'pearls of wisdom' - and thankyou 'Oh Sensei' for correcting this old Westerner's mistakes on casting - I did know they were forged - honest..... Actually Brian - although I knew you had a great interest in Oriental blades, I hadn't realised it was so comprehensive. I appreciate that photos are only a guide - however, would you hazhard a guess for a value ? We see very few Japanese swords in S.A. - mostly souvenirs from a Naval background at the end of WW2. Mervyn

Hello - Neil. welcome to GMIC. Please go back to Page 4 on this sub-Forum - 4th.entry - Records for the Hong Kong Police before 1941. The collectors who added to this thread will possibly be able to help you - certainly worth an IM.. Please let me know how you get on - I do have another contact who may be able to help. Incidentally, have you contacted the HK Force Museum - they are usually very helpful. Mervyn

Very nice example Ian - and certainly has some size. Maybe made larger to carry in a Mayoral procession - or even - dare I say it, an Orange Order March...... I have always held the view that these Bog Oak (petrified wood that has been under water - almost like a peat - and is very hard) truncheons and tipstaffs were a British attempt to introduce a form of Parish Constable into Ireland. There is no great shortage of them - however, I have yet to see a picture of a uniformed official carrying one ? Could you show a picture of the top ?

When you see the sheer size of these old battleships, you realise how this counted against them. When she was sunk the pictures were so dramatic they just keep showing them. And, I believe they have now carried out underwater filming.

That lovely uniform - and - the medal ! Makes you want to start into the savings account........... Stuart - this has been a really interesting thread and I think we have learnt a lot (well, I probably will have - if I can remember). You are quite right with your point about succesful armies and navies being copied. Is that why no-one else wears our Aussie Slouch Hat ?

I must say that I have a few reservations with the blade - however, if it is over 300 years old then there will have been changes in casting techniques. Herewith is the description I have been given. ' An antique Japanese Wakizashi sword. Probably by KOZUKE DAIJO SUKESADA. 1633 - 1721. OSAFUNE , BIZEN PROVINCE. Signed to TANG. Lacquered wood SAYA with small cast iron knife in carved pocket of SAYA. This has cast brass lobster to handle. Weapon overall is - 63 cms. (25.5 inches) I - and I am sure, the owner - will await your comments. Many thanks. Mervyn

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