Josef Rietveld

congratulation, two beautifull and once powerfull supplements for the homefront. I'am thinking myself for months of buying an demillitarized MG myself. But it is a question of space, money and most of all a matter of relationship (means my better third). I'am sure she wont be very satisfied with the schwarzlose 07/12 in the living room, but my son would love it. haynau

Hi Greg, Bravery medals were given from 1789/90 to 1917 ONLY to soldiers, NCOs and ensigns They were only awarded for deeds in face of the enemy therefore the never have swords on the trifold ribbon. From 1790 to 1848 only existed the silver and the golden bravery medal (diameter 40mm, 28 gramm in Gold, 17 gramm in silver) 1848 they created the kleine silberne Tapferkeitsmedaille or Silberne Tapferkeitsmedaille 2. Klasse (30 mm Diameter, also 17 gramm, thicker medal!) 1915 the bronzene Tapferkeitsmedaille (30 mm; 15-16 Gramm) was founded because of the demands of the industrialized mass war for small (low) decorations. On November 29th 1915 an edict defined multiple awards of the same Bravery medal. The repeated award was indicated by a wiederholungsspange (a bar of white metal, silvered metal, rare in real silver) on the ribbon. Upt to four times the same medal (three bars) were possible. On 15th September 1917 Emperor Charles decided to create a Golden Bravery medal and an Silver Bravery medal 1st Class for Officers. Both medal have the royal Cypher C for Charles on the trifold ribbon From 1849 onwards it was alowed to wear all Bravery medals on the chest. The brayery medals are always on first place. Ranking: Gold, Silver 1st, Silver 2nd, Bronze All receipients (exept the bronze medal) received a honoraray extra pay, but it wasn't multiplied for repeatet awards. This honoraray payment was given and regulated again in 1931 and 1958 From 1789 t0 1918 the existed 29 different stampings of the bravery medal. The Golden officers bravery medal is worn before the Milit?rverdienstkreuz IIIrd Class, the Silver 1st Class after the Milit?tverdienstkreuz (Military merit Cross). Oders llike Franz-Josef-Order, Iron Crown, Lepold etc. rank are always before the officer bravery medals. ensigns who got bravery medals wear them after their officers decorations. for example: Milit?rverdienstkreuz, Silver Military merit medal, bronce military merit medal, bravery medal 2nd class (as ensign),bronce Bravery medal, karl-truppen-kreuz karl-troop-cross) The Signum Laudis or Milit?rverdienstmedaillen (military merit medal) were decorations ONLY for officers. The bronce Signum laudis war given from 1890 to 1918 The silver Signum laudis from 1911 to 1918 there exist two different medal-types showing emperor franz josef (-1916) and emperor charles (1917/18) before 1890 officers got a document called allerh?chste belobende anerkennung (= utmost (?) praising recognition) as lowest decoration for officers. After 1890 the medal was given instead. 1911 the silver merit medal was created for a second bestowal of the belobende anerkennung. in peacetime the medals had an red trifold ribbon in wartimes the classical kriegsband as for bravery medals, military merit crosses, merit crossses, iron merit crosses etc. 1916 (13th decmber) swords were introduced for decorations won in frontline service. from april 1916 on the silver merit medal could be multiple awarded (maximum three times = two silver bars). ONLY the silver one, because if you received a second bronce won it was automatically a silver merit medal. The wartime merit medals rank before the peacetime awards. an example: Military merit cross IIIrd class, Silver Merit medal, Bronze merot medal, bronce merit medal on red ribbon, etc. regards haynau

@Sascha, Shame on me. I should have recognized that Rick, thanks for the quick research. one more question: The fact that the ordesalmanach from 1908/09 doesn't mention the medal for zeal indicates that he received this decoration after 1908? or maybe he didnT announce that he received this medal aswell? WOW @Ed Haynes thanks, that is like Candy for me Thanks to all for their comments and corrections. I'am glad that in financial terms i bit the bullet this time. It seems to be a unique piece and i'am very very happy. Do you think it should be repaired and the medjidie fixed to the bar again? I think i will have that done. regards Josef (haynau)

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In another Forum i won the race for this little Bar. It shows: 1. Turkey Medjidie-Order, 4th Class (golden thugra-center) 2. Imperial Russia, Small Medal for Zealous Service on wrong ribbon 3: REO-Medal typ from 1889 to 1908 (silvered) The Russian Medal and the REO-medal seem to be Spangenst?cke, the REO-medal is silvered metal? The Medjidie is a Standard-Piece with Shah-Hallmark (looks like an E) and reverse Center Medaillon of the Ottoman Imperial Mint in Constantinople Unfortunately the Medjidie is loose, the yarn where it was fixed is still on the bar, but this is blessing in disguise: Two decorations have engravings on the backside: On the medjidie is written: Stambul November 1898 F. Naumann On the REO-Medal is written: Stambul 22.II F. Naumann Stambul is the old German Word for Constantinople (Istanbul) There were three visits from Emperor Wilhelm II in turkey: 1889, 1889 and 1917 In 1898 the royal couple arrived on October 25th in Haifa to visit jerusalem and Damaskus.BTW the journey was organized by Thomas Cook. later they visited the eccavation in Baalbek and arrived in Instanbul in November. On 1st of December 1898 emperor and empress came back to Berlin. Part of the emperors entourage during this journey was Friedrich Naumann (1860-1919). NAUMANN WIKIPEDIA In 1907 he became member of the reichstag. MY QUESTION: has somebody the possibility to check if my F. Naumann mentioned on the bar is identical with Friedrich Naumann. Maybe there are lists of the persons who received a REO-Medal or maybe is it possible to trace his decorations because he was Reichstag-Member. I guess the bar was maybe done in the last days of the Orient-Trip maybe for one of the last pompous feast at the imperial ottoman court because of the Medjidie in 1st position as courtoise to the noble host. That would also explain the wrong ribbon of the russian medal. maybe there wasn't enough time to get the correct ribbon. Friedrich Naumann was protestant priest, in 1895 he quit with this profession and became free-lancer journalist and author, later politician. I guess the decoration shown on the bar were his first decorations ever. Maybe he was so proud, that he ordered this special engravings. Just my speculations. I'am very courios about the forumites thoughts on this bar. regards Haynau

Nowadays the austrian oder-system is a little bit complex. There exist 15 classes of the national merit order (instututed in 1952): Gro?stern des Ehrenzeichens f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich Grand Star of the Decoration of Honour for services to the Republic of Austria; Gro?es goldenes Ehrenzeichen am Bande f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich Grand Decoration of Honour in Gold with Sash for services to the Republic of Austria; Gro?es silbernes Ehrenzeichen am Bande f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich Grand Decoration of Honour in Silver with Sash for services to the Republic of Austria; Gro?es goldenes Ehrenzeichen mit dem Stern f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich Grand Decoration of Honour in Gold with Star for services to the Republic of Austria; Gro?es silbernes Ehrenzeichen mit dem Stern f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich Grand Decoration of Honour in Silver with Star for services to the Republic of Austria; Gro?es goldenes Ehrenzeichen f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich Grand Decoration of Honour in Gold for Services to the Republic of Austria; Gro?es silbernes Ehrenzeichen f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich Grand Decoration of Honour in Silver for Services to the Republic of Austria; Gro?es Ehrenzeichen f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich Grand Decoration of Honour for services to the Republic of Austria; Goldenes Ehrenzeichen f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich Decoration of Honour in Gold for services to the Republic of Austria; Silbernes Ehrenzeichen f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich Decoration of Honour in Silver for services to the Republic of Austria; Goldenes Verdienstzeichen der Republik ?sterreich Decoration of Merit in Gold of the Republic of Austria; Silbernes Verdienstzeichen der Republik ?sterreich Decoration of Merit in Silver of the Republic of Austria; Goldene Medaille f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich Medal in Gold for services to the Republic of Austria.; Silberne Medaille f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich Medal in Silver for services to the Republic of Austria.; Bronzene Medaille f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich Medal in Bronze for services to the Republic of Austria. You see haynau .

A Gro?es Ehrenkreuz f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich. The miniature would look like this haynau

Try this LINK or ask GMIC-Member Sascha he has some orders and documents that belonged to Liman von Sanders. regards Haynau

@ulsterman, OK i see the point. it is as often a question of probability. haynau

@Ulsterman, Why? The are known winners of the GTM (Goldene Tapferkeitsmedaille) who got ONLY the GTM but no other Bravery Medals (Bronze, Silver). So it is possible to wear an GTM, a Karl-Truppen-Kreuz and a Laeso-Militi-Medal on a bar without lower Bravery Medals. Technical branch seems to be improbable, there should be a merit cross (likely silver or maybe gold), as mentioned before. Often highly-decorated NCO's could get get an iron merit cross aswell. Though it was institued 1916 for longservice NCO's in the hinterland or at the front but with no normally combat-assignment, it was given to young deserved NCO's aswell. BTW whatever the OMSA says. in 1916 a lot of the iron merit crosses were issued with red ribbon for military personal in the hinterland. regards haynau

Hi Kev, beautifull medal i have never seen before. The reverse shows Budapest and Danube and the date 30.Dezember 1916. On this day Charles I of Austria was crowned in budapest as Cahles IV, King of Hungary. Maybe this medal is a kind of coronation medal? just my 2 cents josef

My inclination is Austrian. The Inhaberjubil?ums-Medaille f?r Ausl?nder was issued 1908 to Officers and established NCO's. I don't know how much time it took in imperial germany to become an established NCO but before 1914 everything was a bit slower then after 1914. So i guess he must have been in service at least for five, six or seven years. So he entered the W?rttembergian Army beetween 1901 and 1903 or maybe a little bit earlier. 1908 he received the Inhaberjubil?umsmedaille and somewhen in the following years till 1914 his Colonel-in-Chief awarded him adittionally a merit cross in silver or gold with or without Crown. This is just a speculation but it makes sense to me. In this case he must have a 15-Years-Service-Cross on his Bar and not a 12-years-medal regards josef

Hi kev, beautifull collection you have, congrats Your proposal to put a ribbon under the glass is funny because some other collectors did mention the same fact and told me to put there a normal ribbon and a beamtenband to show the different ribbons. I haven't made up my mind about this so far. i have no zinc-mvk. these mvks are my third or fourth collecting field. so i'am happy with what i have, no variants, no different producers etc. i just wanted to have a contemporary piece of every class of the 3rd modell with and without crown. just because the are so cute. the next bavarian display i'am thinking of will consist of a MVO 4th Class + X and a MVO 4tc Class + Crown + X then i hope i'am finished with the slipery bavarian road and can get back to the real things like Ottoman empire @Jacky, thanks. I'am glad you like it. In fact this picture Frame hangs in our anteroom. The room that is frequented most beetween living room and kitchen. it is the only medal dsiply i have at home so far. but i will discuss this issue furthermore with my sweetheart. josef

I took an old thick picture frame, did a new backboard stringed with velvet (without sulfur!!) and fixed the merit crosses with little catches. unfortunatelx with this method you cant show the ribbons. josef

the other bar

IMHO the lack of the centenary-medal indicates that there was no Signum Memeoriae on the bar. So he enterd service after 1897. Generally it would be very uncommon for a german to receive the Signum Memoriae. The regulations say that it was given on the red ribbon for three years actice service in the AH-Army between 1848-1898. There were some germans who got it, but as the regulations say the had to be once in austrian service (sometimes german officers who enterd austrian service before the creation of the german empire 1871). In case of this bar i think we can exclude this possibility. The only two possibilities that are logical is a bulgarian decoration as steve mentioned or an austrian Merit-Cross on red ribbo (peacetime). A classical decoration for higher NCOs in peace and wartime. I add two pictures of bars. One shows an officers bar with the Inhaberjubil?ums-Medaille f?r Ausl?nder in Silver and a Franz-Josefs-Order (Knight). It was a question of courtoise that officers and NCOs of the foreign regiments whre the emperor was colonel-in-chief received additional austrian decorations besides the inhaberjubil?umsmedaille. the other bar is from a german NCO and shows an golden merit-cross with Crown and a bulgarian alexander-order. both pictures come i borrowed from the SDA where i have the honour to be member aswell. regards josef

Thanks Mark and Steve. If i put an LS-Decoration on the bar next to the prussian 15-Years-Cross, should it be then a w?rttemberg 15-years-Cross? or a w?rttemberg Landwehr-service-decoration. sorry for the question, but i never understood the german Dienstauszeichnungs-System completly thanks in advance josef

@steve, if i read your posting correctly it means that i would have the possibility either to put a Faithfull service cross on position 4 OR a W?rttemberg Landwehr-service-medal/cross. josef (Haynau)

thanks for yourcomments, as soon as i get the bar i will make better pics to clarify if the ribbons are new. @steve, one question: Why a 9-years-service-medal and not a 12-years-medal or a 15-years-service-cross. don't they have the same ribbon? on 5th place i guess it was an austria merit cross. he must have enterd service before 1897/98 to get an austrian signum memoriae @Dave is there a swords device on such bars for the verdienstkreuz in most cases or is it a can-be-regulation regards josef (haynau)

Dear gentlemen, unfortunately i have only basic knowledge off imperial decorations and bars. Sorry for the bad pictures (ebay) Its no problem to identify the medals that are mounted on the bar: 1: IC 2 2: 3:Hindeburg Cross for Combattants 4: 5: Long Service Cross (Prussia) for 15 Years 6: 7: Austrian 60 Years Anniversary Medal for foreign Regiments wehre the emperor was Colonel in Chief My questions: What belongs to places 2, 4 and 6? 6 could be an austrian peacetime decoration (red ribbon) like an Golden or Silver Merit Cross with/without crown as it was given to NCO's in foreign regiments The anniversary medal in Bronze was also given to NCO's that fitts for me My general question: is this combination of awards, possible and makes sense? On number 2 there must be a WW1-decoration, i think. the award on number 4 follows the Hindenburg-crss. I guess it must be a peacetime-decoration last question. i know the pictures are bad, but do you think the bar plus ribbons are new done? thanks in advance Josef (haynau)

His full name was Johann Nepomuk Wirt also written W?rth or Wirth (1753-1810) aynau

@ChristianL the badge on the pic belongs to the kk Milit?r-Veteranen Reichsbund (a AH veterans organisation). Unfortunately i don't know more about this Reichsbund. Haynau

Hi Tom, IMHO als medals are good, the 2nd and 3rd ribbon seem to be new ones. As Hunyadi wrote, you have to look at the backside of the repeated awards bar if thre is a marker mark JC, zimbler whatever. but i know also old bars for repeated award with NO marks. regards Haynau what does he ask for them? everythin less than 90 USD would be a real bargain.