RobW

And the reverses.

To all, As a comparison here is another of my Belgian groups. To my untrained eye the Type 1 Fire Cross has some minor variations to that posted by both Tim B and Gldank. Hope it is of use. Regards, Rob

To all, Here is another official Czech vic with 'O.Spaniel' makers mark and a barrel suspender. This particular coarse ribbon type is seen less often than that on the previously posted czech vic pics. It is also seen on the different varieties of the Czech produced Belgian vic model. For some reason the recipient lightly buffed this piece. Regards, Rob

Hello Dieter3, Agreed the ribbon does have a very vivid colour. I have seen other specimens where the ribbon colours are particularly bright. Not being able to see the entire obverse and reverse I couldn't comment on your statement that it could be a replacement or a copy. I have seen many copies of the Japanese vic and they are not this good. The reverse of the ribbon has the standard 'hook and eye' although I am bemused why the hook is not actually behind the eye but that is a minor thing. I would say it looks okay pending a better look at the obverse and reverse. You may want to inquire with Paul Murphy as well. Regards, Rob

Tim, As you have suspected it would be a more recent production ribbon. Apart from the more coarse contemporary ribbon seen in the U.K. there are also numerous other patterns eminating from continental Europe. Regards, Rob

Tim, The first official Czech vics were produced with the cylinder suspension, as for those produced by Alexander Leisek. At some indetermined point in time the Kremnice mint changed the suspension to the more commonly seen barrel suspender. The vast majority of the Czech vics I've seen have had the barrel suspender. I have the medals awarded to members of both the Czech-Italian and Czech-Russian legion and they were both vics with barrel suspenders. Subsequent to the official strikes all the remaining re-issue strikes produced later after World War 2 have also got the cylinder suspender. It is good to have some variety. In regards the ribbon colours I obtained most of my Czech vics direct from dealers in the present Czech Republic hence the nice non faded ribbons. There is a large variety of coarse ribbon types seen with the Czech vic as well. Regards, Rob

Tim, As an aide here are some italian vics with original ribbon. I have confirmed this to be so through various italian medal forums and collectors. The pictures should show a consistent sort of ribbon variety. There are a couple of other varieties which are seen on earlier issued italian vics where the ribbon is less blended. Kev from Deva had both varieties in one of his posts. The pin holes seen on some of the ribbons are from the plain safety pin that was used to hold the medal to the corresponding award certificate ! From L-R: Official type1, type 2, type 3, type 3a, type 4, re-issue type 1, and unofficial type 1. Hope it helps. Regards, Rob

To all, A Greece vic, unofficial type 2, in dark bronze. Diameter is 36.7 mm. Specimens have also been seen in a gilt finish. Regards, Rob

And here are the reverses. Not the mark STERLING which is just visible on the reverse arm of the British War Medal. Regards, Rob

To all, To change the direction a little here is a nice small British vic mini group. L-R; 1914 Star with bar, British War Medal in silver (marked STERLING on the reverse suspension arm), vic with Mentioned-In-Despatches emblem, French War Cross 1914-1918 with palm, and Long Service & Good Conduct Medal. What caught my eye was the original silk ribbons, the inclusion of the French War Cross, and the fact that the recipient had engraved his regimental details on the reverse of the suspender bar behind the pin. It is normally difficult to research mini groups as they are not named but in this case the group is attributed. Non British awards, like the French War Cross, are normally seen at the end of British Groups after all British awards but in this case it appears the recipient placed it where he wanted it ! Regards, Rob

Tim, Thanks for the kind words. Being a single issue collector it just means I have more time to do research into details of the vic series. Then of course there is the award certificates for the vic series which are just as fascinating as the medals themselves. Some of the certificates are attractive pieces on their own. While both editions of Mr Laslo's vic books are an excellent reference source, time has moved on and more interesting varieties are continually rising to the surface as well as new information which either adds to, or clarifies these earlier works. I have an original 2nd edition which sits in the bookshelf and another much used 2nd edition copy that has been emended with additions, deletions, and is full of pasted pieces, new images and many black pen markings. That is I suppose the nature of our hobby. You also meet some real gentlemen and more than a few rogues along the way !! I will continue to scan and post items from my vic collection when, and as, time permits. In a way it is a good project because it also means I am cataloging my collection as I go. Agreed that a single point of reference for all vic collectors would be a good thing. Let's see what the administrators think of such an idea ! Regards, Rob

To the fellow vic collectors, I am happy to continue posting items and info here but the last couple of posts and pics should probably have gone into the specific italian vic medal forum thread. I have some nice pics of two Greek vic unofficial type 2 (dark bronze and gilt) which would normally go into the Greek vic thread and am faced with a conundrum. Should we continue to post all country vic items here or in the relevant country threads ? I have posted a request for a separate Interallied Victory medal topic with specific country sub-threads. I think that this would be the best way to continue to post info and pics in the relevant country under the banner of a specific forum topic. What level of support would there be from similar like minded vic collectors for such a topic-thread ? Regards, Rob

To all, The re-issue type 2 has been seen in a number of different base metals. I have a shiny bronze (this example) as well a darker brown dull bronze specimen, and it has also been seen in a lighter toned flat bronze as well as in a silver finish. Note the die differences between this type and the official issues. Diameter is 36.4 mm. Hope the pics help. Regards, Rob

Tim and others, The italian vic re-issue type 1 is almost identical to the standard issues. It does, however have a shallower level of detail, is produced in a much lighter bronze material. The planchet is narrower than the official issue while the staffa suspender is much wider than the official issue. Diameter is 36 mm. Regards, Rob

Tim, The unofficial type 1 has been produced in a number of different metals, with a thin or thick staffa suspender. In addition there are very minor reverse differences as well and it is this variety that has some minor reverse differences that seems to be the model for the reproduction type 3. The repro type 3 I have is the same as the one you posted here. I don't have any philosophical disagreements with reproductions per se, as long as they are advertised and sold as so. If the item was displayed as an unofficial type 1 and sold as such then there is an issue. I would agree that the only way to tell the difference between an unofficial type 1 and its variants, the reissue types and the reproduction type is to handle them. The unofficial strikes are of a much darker base bronze metal whereas the reproductions are on a much more shiny and lighter bronze metal. The unofficial strikes tend to be thicker with the reproduction type 3 being noticeably thinner. When I have time I will measure the depth of my examples for comparison. The re-issue type 2 is immediately noticeable as being different. I would agree that all the marks that you have identified on the medal in question would indicate it, and mark it, as a reproduction type 3 (according to Mr Laslo's book). It is still collectible but it would not be an unofficial type 1. Dependent on work schedules I shall locate some specimens of the re-issue type 1 and re-issue type 2 for your reference as well as another unofficial type 1 with a different staffa. When I have I will post pics. I hope this helps. Regards, Rob

Tim, Looking at that Lorioli-Castelli variety it looks good to me. At 36 mm it is also the right diameter. Looks like a case of correct medal but with a more modern ribbon, probably replacing a worn out original. I am aware of a couple of cast copies that were produced in the UK in the early 1960's (italian vic repro type 1 and 2) but these are immediately noticeable due to the dark iridescent base metal and finish, reduced level of detail and a casting line in the centre of the rim around the medal. Regards, Rob

Mervyn, Being new to the forum I'm not sure of how long a thread remains active for before it is 'archived' so my comments may be off the mark. I am not sure of how many fellow Australians are posting here but to my mind if there was a generic title (AUSTRALIAN MILITARY RESEARCH as has been suggested) that stayed active, there would at least be one location that subsequent forum posters could go to when conducting any Australian military research. If the subject remains open I would be more inclined to drop in and have a look when I have the time, or answer queries if I can. Just my 2 cents worth ! Regards, Rob

Here are the obligatory close-ups. Regards, Rob

To all, Here is an italian unofficial vic type 1, 34 mm in diameter. It is considered rare even amongst italian collectors. Regards, Rob

Hello Tim, It is not a re-issue type 2. I have a couple of the re-issue type 2 and will post pics of them when I have time. The item you have displayed is actually the reproduction type 3, according to Mr Laslo's reference. It is a contemporary copy of the unofficial type 1 and has been seen in a number of different metal finishes. The differences are described in Mr Laslo's reference book. The unofficial type 1 has also been seen in a number of different finishes. They have also been seen manufactured from slightly different base metals, as well as having different staffa suspenders. More pics to follow on the re-issue types and repro type 3 when I have time. Regards, Rob

And here are the close-ups. Hope the pics help. Regards, Rob

Hello Tim, Here are the pics of the two signature varieties of the Lorioli-Castelli type italian vic. I am not sure of the reasons behind the truncation of the makers mark and am inquiring with some fellow italian collectors. More details will hopefully follow. On a rarity scale the smaller signature type is seen much more rarely (approx 1 in 20) out of the Lorioli-Castelli variety. The smaller signature variety has accordingly been dubbed 'Italian official type 3a' as a continuance of the Laslo type classifications. Close-up pics to follow. Regards, Rob

Tim, There are two different varieties of the Lorioli-Castelli Milano signed version. I will post pics tonight. Regards, Rob

Great pictures Tim, I also have a U.S. vic with a re-issue CHAMPAGNE-MARNE bar attached. It is more of a shiny bronze finish and looks out of place with the other darker bronze coloured bars. Once I track it down I shall post pics. Regards, Rob

Here is another Czech official vic, with 'O. Spaniel' makers mark on the obverse, but this time with a barrel suspender. These types are much more common than the previous cylinder suspender types. Note the coarse weave Czech style ribbon and the unofficial single linden leaf device. Regards, Rob