johnnymac

Thanks for that information IrishGunner, He is Sgt. Alex L. Arch of C Co. 6th Field Artillery, 1st Division. He was Credited with pulling the lanyard on the French 75mm which fired the first shot in anger of the AEF against German forces. It occurred at Xanrey in the Luneville sector of Lorraine on October 23, 1917. I must add the photo is signed by Alex, Jim

A. MULE DEPOT. Army Mule Department A.B. CPS. Army Bearer Corps A.B.C. Army Bearer Corps A.M.P. Assam Military Police A.R. Assam Rifles ADEN TRP Aden Troop ALWAR I.S. INFY. Alwar Imperial Service Infantry ARTY I.D.F. Garrison Artillery Indian Defence Force ASSAM RIF. Assam Rifles B & C.I. RY BN. I.D.F. Bombay & Central Indian Railway Battalion Indian Defence Force B.M. POLICE Burma Military Police B.M. Rif. Bengal Mounted Rifles B.M.P. ATTD. 15/SIKHS Burma Military Police Attached 15th Sikhs B.M.P. Burma Military Police B.T. Bridging Train BAL. INFY Baluchistan Infantry BALUCH. INF. Baluchistan Infantry BALUCHIS Baluchis BALUCHIS Baluchistan Infantry BASRAH SURVEYS Basrah Surveys Department BENGALIS Bengalis BHAMO BN B.M.P. Bhamo Battalion Burma Military Police BHAVN. I.S. LRS. Bhavnagar Imperial Service Lancers BHOPAL I.S. LRS. Bhopal Imperial Service Lancers BHOPAL INF. Bhopal Infantry BO. VOL. ART. Bombay Volunteer Artillery BOMBAY ARTY I.D.F. Bombay Artillery Indian Defence Force BOMBAY ARTY. I.D.F. Bombay Artillery Indian Defence Force BOMBAY BN. I.D.F. Bombay Battalion Indian Defence Force BOMBAY L.H. Bombay Light Horse BOMBAY VOL. AR. Bombay Volunteer Artillery BOMBAY VOL. ART. Bombay Volunteer Artillery BOMBAY VOL. RIF. Bombay Volunteer Rifles BRAHMANS Brahmans BURMA M.RIF. Burma Mounted Rifles BURMA MIL. P. Burma Military Police BURMA MOUNTED RFLS. Burma Mounted Rifles BURMA MTD. RFLS. Burma Mounted Rifles BURMA RIF. Burma Rifles C. OF GUIDES Corps of Guides C. OF GUIDES INF. Corps of Guides Infantry C.I. HORSE Central Indian Horse C.M.S.C. Corps of Military Staff Clerks C.P.D. GROUP GARR. Cape Penninsular Defence Group C.T. COY. Camel Transport Company CALCUTTA VOL. A. Calcutta Volunteer Artillery CALCUTTA VOL. BY. Calcutta Volunteer Battery CALCUTTA VOL. RIF. Calcutta Volunteer Rifles CAVALRY F.F. Cavalry Frontier Force CEYLON G.A. Ceylon Garrison Artillery COSSIPORE INFY. Cossipore Infantry COY. A.B.C. Company Army Bearer Corps COY. A.H. CORPS. Company Army Hospital Corps CPS. GUIDES Corps of Guides DELHI R. Delhi Regiment DEOLI R. Deoli Regiment DERAJAT M.B. Derajat Mountain Battery DIV. SIG. COY. Divisional Signal Company DIV. SIG. SQUAD Divisional Signal Squadron DOGRAS Dogras DELHI R. Delhi Regiment DEOLI R. Deoli Regiment DERAJAT M.B. Derajat Mountain Battery DIV. SIG. COY. Divisional Signal Company DIV. SIG. SQUAD Divisional Signal Squadron DOGRAS Dogras ERINPURAS Erinpura Regiment F.F.RIF. Frontier Force Rifles F.G.A. Frontier Garrison Artillery FD.CO.S. & M. Field Company Sappers & Miners FR. CONSTAB. Frontier Constabulary G.M.P. Garrison Military Police GARHWAL RIF. Garhwal Rifles GRENADIERS Grenadiers GRKS.RF. Gurkha Rifles GRNDSR. Grenadiers GUIDES CAVY. Guides Cavalry GUIDES INFY. Guides Infantry GUIDES INFY. Guides Infantry GURKHA RIF. Gurkha Rifles GWALIOR I.S. LRS. Gwalior Imperial Service Lancers HARIANA LNC. Hariana Lancers HORSE Horse I. ECC. EST. Indian Ecclesiastical Establishment I. LABOUR C. Indian Labour Corps I. REMT. D. Indian Remount Department I. SIG. S. Indian Signal Service I.A. Indian Army I.A.C.C. Indian Army Corps of Clerks I.A.M.C. Indian Army Medical Corps I.A.O.C. Indian Army Ordnance Corps I.A.P.S.S. Indian Army Printing and Stationery Services I.A.R.O. Indian Army Reserve of Officers I.A.S. Indian Army Staff I.A.V.C. Indian Army Veterinary Corps I.B.C. Indian Bearer Corps I.E. TEL. DEPT. Indian Engineers Telegraph Department I.H. CORPS. Indian Hospital Corps I.M.D. Indian Medical Department I.M.L. Indian Miscellaneous List I.M.S. Indian Medical Service I.M.T. Indian Marine Transport I.O.D. Indian Ordnance Department I.P.S. Indian Postal Service I.R.C.S. Imperial Rest Camp Staff I.S. CPS. Imperial Staff Corps I.S.C. CPS. Imperial Service Camel Cps I.S.M.D. Indian Subordinate Medical Department I.S.T.C. Indian Supply Transport Commissariat I.U.L. Indian Unattached List I.W.T. Indian Water Transport IND. ARTY. Indian Artillery IND. CST. ART. Indian Coastal Artillery IND. LAB. COY Indian Labour Company IND. SURVEY Indian Surveys INDIAN BR. CORPS Indian Bearer Corps INDIAN D.F. Indian Defence Force INDN. SIG. COY. Indian Signal Company INDN. TELEGRAPHS Indian Telegraph Dept. JAT LT. INF. Jat Light Infantry JATS Jat Infantry JIND I.S. INFY. Jind Imperial Service Infantry JODPHUR I.S. LRS. Jodphur Imperial Service Lancers KAPUR INFY. Kapur Infantry KAPURTHALA JAGATJIT INF. Kapurthala Jagatjit Infantry KASHMIR RFLS. Kashmir Rifles KOHAT M.B. Kohat Mountain Battery KOHAT M.B.F.F. Kohat Mountain Battery Frontier Force KURRAM MIL. Kurram Militia LAHORE LABOUR CPS Lahore labour Corps LANCERS F.H. Lancers Fanes Horse LANCERS Lancers LIGHT CAV. Light Cavalry LIGHT INF. Light Infantry LOCAL TRANSPORT Local Transport LRS. Lancers LT. CAV. Light Cavalry LT. CAVALRY Light Cavalry M. BTY. Mountain Battery M. FARMS D. Military Farms Department M.A.D. Military Accounts Department M.B. Mountain Battery M.B.R.G.A. Mountain Battery Royal Garrison Artillery M.C. Mule Corps M.D. Mahendra Dhal Regiment M.L. CPS Mekran Levy Corps M.T.C. Motor Transport Corps M.W.S. Military Works Service MACEDONIAN MULE C. Macedonian Mule Corps MACEDONIAN MULE CPS. Macedonian Mule Corps MADRAS MTR. CYC. Madras Motor Cyclist MADRAS S & M Madras Sappers & Miners MAGADI D.F. Magadi Defence Force MAHRATTAS Mahrattas MALAY S. GDS. ART. Malay States Guides Artillery MALAY S. GDS. Malay States Guides MALER KOTLA I-S. SPRS. Malerkotla Imperial Service Sappers MECH. TPT. Mechanical Transport MERWARAS Merwara Infantry MESO. R. Mesopotamian Railways MESO. RYS. Mesopotamian Railways MESPOT. RLYS. Mesopotamian Railways MHTS. Mahrattas MIL. M. CYC. C. Military Motor Cyclists Corps MTN. BATTERY Mountain Battery MTN. BATTY. Mountain Battery MULE CPS. Mule Corps MYIT. BN. B.M.P. Myit Battalion Burma Military Police N. RFLS. Napiers Rifles N. WAZ. MIL. North Waziristan Militia N. WAZ. MILITIA North Waziristan Militia N.B.M. RIF. Northern Bengal Mounted Rifles N.W. MILITIA North Waziristan Militia N.W. RLY. M.G. COY. North West Railway Maxim Gun Company NIL. MAL. BN. A.F.I. Nilghai & Malabar Battalions Auxiliary Forces India NIL. MAL. BN. I.D.F. Nilghai & Malabar Battalions Indian Defence Force NIL. VOL. RFLS. Nilghai Volunteer Rifles ORDNANCE DEPT. Ordnance Department OTRM. RFLS. Outrams Rifles OUTRN. RFLS. Outranis Rifles P. BTY. F.F. Pack Battery Frontier Force P. BTY. Pack Battery Royal Garrison Artillery P. CPS. Pony Corps P.G. Pushpati Guards PACK ARTY. Pack Artillery PACK BTY. R.G.A. Pack Battery Royal Garrison Artillery PALAM. L.I. Palamcottah Light Infantry PATALIA I.S. LNCRS. Patalia Imperial Service Lancers PATHANS Pathans PATIALA I.S. INFY Patiala Imperial Service Infantry PATIALA INFY. Patiala Infantry PESHAWAR LABOUR CPS. Peshawar Labour Corps PESHAWAR M.B. Peshawar Mountain Battery PIONEERS Pioneers PJBIS Punjabis PJBS Punjabis PNRS Pioneers PNRS. Pioneers POLITICAL I.A. Political Department Indian Army POSTAL DEPT Postal Department PRES. VOL. RIF. Presidency Volunteer Rifles PT. TFC. Port Traffic PUNJAB L.H. Punjab Light Horse PUNJABIS Punjabis Q.A.M.N.S.I. Queen Alexandra's Medical Nursing Service India Q.V.O. CPS. OF GUIDES (F.F.) Queen Victoria's Own Corps of Frontier Force Q.V.O. CPS. OF GUIDES Queen Victoria's Own Corps of Guides Q.V.O. MADRAS S & M Queen Victoria's Own Madras Sappers & Miners R. JAT L.I. Royal Jat Light Infantry R.I.A. Royal Indian Artillery R.I.M. Royal Indian Marine RAJPUTS Rajputs RIFLES Rifles RLY. C.C. Railway Construction Company RLY. D.F. Railway Defence Force RLY. REGT. Railway Regiment RY. BN. S & M. Railway Battalion Sappers & Miners S & T CORPS Supply & Transport Corps S & M Sappers & Miners S & T.C. Supply & Transport Corps S. WAZ. MIL South Waziristan Militia S. WAZ. MILITIA South Waziristan Militia S. WAZ. SCTS. South Waziristan Scouts S.C. CORPS. Supply Commissariat Corps S.D.I.E. Subordinate Department Indian Engineers S.W. MILITIA South Waziristan Militia SCHWEBO BN. Schwebo Battalion SIALKOT CAV. BDE. Sialkot Cavalry Brigade SIKH PIONEERS Sikh Pioneers SIKHS Sikhs STAFF Staff TEL. DEPT. Telegraph Department V.A. BTTY. Volunteer Artillery Battery V.M.D. Volunteer Motor Drivers VOL. ART. BY. LA. Volunteer Artillery Battery Indian Army VOL. M.G.B. Volunteer Maxim Gun Battery VOL. M.G.C. Volunteer Maxim Gun Company WALLAJ. L.I. Wallajabad Light Infantry WORKS DTE. Works Directorate Z.L. POLICE Zhob Levy Police R.I.M. Royal Indian Marine

Thanks Bill, There many facts which I do not which to add at this time, but the wire loop was never an issue medal. " It is always good to give ground when you are not going forward", Jim

To all there is, as Rob posted an official vic currently up for auction on ebay. Condition always works hand in hand with price. With that said and the fact that there is no mad rush to do a "buy now" at the $1500 price tag. I would say if you are interested you can do a ebay contract to the seller and make a offer you can live with. As Rob has pointed out these medaL IN ANY CONDITION DO NOT COME UP TO OFTEN. It might be a good investment for a young vic collector, as time is on your side. Regards Jim

I hope this helps all members

Hi Lambert, I also note that posting #10 did not mention the 4 clasps down as also being wrong. This is the same medal on ebay and these unofficial clasp are not so rare as I just stated they are being sold almost on a daily basis on ebay. Sometimes the seller even sells all 14 of these clasps as set. Jim This is not a enhanced medal done by a veteran, unless you want to believe it is. Oi Lambert, eu também notar que a publicação n º 10 não mencionou as quatro grampos para baixo como também estar errado. Esta é a mesma medalha no ebay e estes fecho oficial não são tão raros como eu disse eles estão sendo vendidos quase diariamente no ebay. Às vezes, o vendedor ainda vende todas as 14 destes grampos como conjunto. Jim Esta não é uma medalha de melhor feito por um veterano, a menos que você quer acreditar que é.

Hi Lambert you are correct that is posting #10

Clasps from the top down numbered 1, 2 & 4 are not official issue. They are late reproductions sold by vendors at shows and veterans conventions. You can find them on ebay each and every day, mostly as single army clasp for sale. see these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/AISNE-BAR-WW-I-Victory-Medal-DEVICE-/290855069233?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b8502631 http://www.ebay.com/itm/A01-ARMY-WWI-VICTORY-MEDAL-CAMBRAI-BAR-/271101521558?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1ee8ee96 http://www.ebay.com/itm/A09-ARMY-WWI-VICTORY-MEDAL-OISE-AISNE-BAR-/271124300245?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f204481d5 http://www.ebay.com/itm/LYS-BAR-WW-I-Victory-Medal-DEVICE-/390531881004?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5aed83982c

AND MAYBE SEVERAL OTHERS, Jim 4th Division, 13th, 16th & 77th Field Artillery 5th Division, 60th, 61st, 6th & 11th Infantry 5th Division, 13th, 14th & 15th Machine Gun Battalion 5th Division, 5th Ammunition Train 5th Division, 7th Engineers 5th Division, 5th Supply Train 5th Division,5th Headquarters & Military Police Co. 5th Division, 5th Sanitary Train (Ambulance Co. & Field Hospitals 17, 25, 29, 30) 30th Division, 113th, 114th & 115th Field Artillery 30th Division, 105th Ammunition Train 30th Division, 105th Trench Mortar Battery 33rd Division, 122nd, 123rd & 124th Field Artillery 33rd Division, 108th Ammunition Train 35th Division, 137th, 138th, 139th & 140th Infantry 35th Division, 129th & 130th Machine Gun Battalion 35th Division, 128th, 129th & 130th Field Artillery 35th Division, 110th Ammunition Train 35th Division, 110th Engineer Train 35th Division, 110th Field Signal Battalion 35th Division, 110th Supply Train 35th Division, 110th Trench Mortar Battery 35th Division, 35th Headquarters & Military Police Co. 35th Division, 110th Sanitary Train (Ambulance Co. Field Hospitals 137, 138, 139, 140) 36th Division, 111th Engineer Train 78th Division, 309th, 310th, 311th & 312th Infantry 78th Division, 307th, 308th & 309th Machine Gun Battalion 78th Division, 307th, 308th & 309th Field Artillery 78th Division, 303rd Field Signal Battalion 78th Division, 303rd Trench Mortar Battery 78th Division, 303rd Ammunition Train 78th Division, 303rd Supply Train 78th Division, 303rd Engineer Train 78th Division, Headquarters & Military Police Co. 78th Division, 303rd Sanitary Train (Ambulance Co. Field Hospitals 309, 310, 311, 312) 82nd Division, 325nd, 326th, 327th & 328th Infantry 82nd Division, 319th, 320th & 321st Machine Gun Battalion 82nd Division, 319th, 320th & 321st Field Artillery 82nd Division, 307th Ammunition Train 82nd Division, 307th Engineer Train 82nd Division, 307th Field Signal Battalion 82nd Division, 307th Trench Mortar Battery 82nd Division, 307th Supply Train 82nd Division, Headquarters & Military Police Co. 82nd Division, 307th Sanitary Train (Ambulance Co. Field Hospitals 325, 326, 327, 328) 85th Division, 328th & 329th Field Artillery 85th Division, 310th Engineer 2nd Battalion 89th Division, 353rd, 354th, 355th & 356th Infantry 89th Division, 340th, 341st & 342nd Machine Gun Battalion 89th Division, 314th Engineer 89th Division, 314th Field Signal Battalion 89th Division, 314th Trench Mortar Battery 89th Division, 314th Supply Train 89th Division, 314th Headquarters & Military Police Co. 89th Division, 314th Sanitary Train (Ambulance Co. Field Hospitals 353, 354, 355, 356) 90th Division, 357th, 358th, 359th & 360th Infantry 90th Division, 343rd, 344th & 345th Machine Gun Battalion 90th Division, 315th Engineer 90th Division, 315th Field Signal Battalion 90th Division, 315th Supply Train 90th Division, 315th Headquarters & Military Police Co. 90th Division, 315th Sanitary Train (Ambulance Co. Field Hospitals 357, 358, 359, 360) Balloon Company 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 11th, 12th, 16th, 42nd, 43rd Air Park 2nd, 3rd, 4th Air Service / Photo Section No. 2, 5, 6 Coastal Artillery Corps / Regiment 24nd, 43rd, 57th, 59th, 60th, 65th Engineers 15th Aero Squadron / Observation, 9th, 11th, 20th & 24th Aero Squadron / Pursuit 13th Engineers / Quarry 28, Engineers / Service Battalion 537, 604 Engineers / Water Supply 26, Engineers 17, 21, 37, Field Signal Battalion 317th & 319th Motor Transportation Corps / 414th Motor Supply Train Motor Transportation Corps / 418th Motor Supply Train Motor Transportation Corps / Machine Shop Truck Unit No.322 Ordnance Department / Mobile Ordnance Repair Shop 303rd Pioneer Infantry 53rd Quartermaster Corps / 301st Field Remount Squadron Signal Corps / Telegraph Bn. 55th & 401st Tank Corps / Battalion 344th & 345th U.S. Army Ambulance Sector 520th, 521st, 560th, 569th, 570th, 571st, 590th, 599th, 601st, 602nd, U.S. Army Ambulance Sector 602nd, 603rd, 604th,

I love it Jim lets made a trade!

To me it is hard to modify a medal without it being too obvious to most collectors. That is why I believe you see different suspension a more likely way to make something look a little rarer. And, since we do not know how it came to be, I look at it with caution and ask "why not a simple ball suspension" as it is easier to make that way?

Happy New Year to you Bill and to All other members. Bill, I saw this photo before but I also noted the tool or file marks on the back of the half ball and rim of this medal. The first question I have to ask myself is why would someone make such a thin suspension? Second, why is there no tool marks on the front half of the ball? If you look very close at the suspension ball on the reverse side or the flat side of the medal you exampled, you will see that the hole was drill so close to the side wall that the metal is almost lettings go because of the thinness of the metal left behind after the drilling. This is very common when you start with a large object then you start filing.

This one "MAY" have had the ball suspension filed down to aid it fitting into a glass covered frame. MHO http://www.ebay.com/itm/Very-rare-Belgium-WWI-Victory-medal-unofficial-variation-/251209848385?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a7d461641

I do "NOT" agree that these are original ring type Victory medals. http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-WWI-Victory-Medals-original-RARE-RING-TOP-/281047568405?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item416fbd9015

The front & back of the $311 medal match, the front & back of the $39 do not. So I ask was there a third medal which the seller mixed up the front & back of 2 medal???

Bill, remember this is all speculation on my part, but using some of my own logic. If the price had not reached no more than $75 I think it would have been a good buy as Rob said. You see I think alone the lines, if are selling a car as a classic 1960 Ford Mustang and it has a 451HP Chevy engine and a Dodge transmission is it truly a classic or is just a 1960 parts car? The value is not there. Jim

Bill, what are the chances of the same dealer having the two medals for two different persons, having the same type enhancement and same ribbon, 1 million to one? I believe she the dealer, purchased these two from the same person for resale. Let's just say "Lieut J.G. Chas Woodall" wanted to enhance his medal with different clasps to show where he had served. 1. Writing on the medal "English Channel at Naval Base 29 Cardiff Wales": Cardiff is an exporting port of coal located on the west side of England. It is a small port but it exported near half of all England's coal. I can see it supporting a few Naval ships like a Destroyer or Mine Sweepers to keep the port open. 2. On the rim (which we did not see) was "Lieut" J.G. Chas. Woodall. J.G. stands for "Junior Grade" and in 1898, the U.S. Naval officer register book listed him as being appointed as an ensign, which is just one grade below a Lieut. J.G. You would think, he would moved up more than just one grade in 20 years. But of course, we do not know his story. 3. In regards to his 3 clasps, you asked why he didn't just add the White Sea and Asiatic to his already awarded U.S issued Destroyer clasps if he truly was entitled to a Destroyer clasp? 4. The unofficial army style French made clasp "White Sea" was used for the men who sailed to Russia. It is possible that his ship was pulled from Wales and sailed with the White Sea fleet to Russia. 5. The unofficial army style French made clasp "Asiatic" was used for the men who sailed to Siberia. This is not possible. His ship could not be in two places at the same time. Besides even if we were work some type of timing you then would have ask?, There were hundreds of Destroyers on the West Coast of the USA that would have sailed to Siberia with the "Asiatic Fleet" would they have waited for this lone Destroyer. I did check records for any ships being in both places. I could not find any, "none"? 6. When you, Bill, posted this medal, I questioned and asked myself, Why? If the seasoned Junior Grade Lieutenant wanted to enhance his medal, he could have done it right: He could have left his Victory Medal with his name on the Rim, with the issued Destroyer clasp on the original ribbon and just added the names "White Sea and Asiatic" to the engraving under the word "Wales", where there was enough space. 7. As to the age of a medal, you can oxides brass using a process done on antique rifles brass. You need white vinegar, table salt, hot and cold water and a bucket. You soak the brass object in the bucket filled with 1/2 cup of the white vinegar with 1 Tbsp of table salt. Add hot tap water until the item is covered by the solution. Let it soak for about 20 minutes. Take the brass piece from the bucket and run warm clean tap water over the piece. Rinse clean under warm tap water and dry immediately so you don't get water spots. You may get whitening around edges. (Note the whitening around the sword and lady). To many things going on here with this medal. Jim

Bill that Medal you posted sold for $311 the other one Lambert posted sold for $39.

The clasps are French made and are also done in the Army style not the Navy style. The ribbon is a British made repro ribbon. Someone who was in the Navy would not have only been entitled to more than one clasp.

As Bill just stated two very nice examples, Jim

Battle Participation of Organizations of the American Expeditionary Forces in France, Belgium and Italy, 1917-1918. printed in 1920. Also in the pamphlet WWI Campaign and Service credits which was printed in June 1996 the 93rd is still the same. Where-as the 94th has an added clasp "Oise-Aisne". To this pamphlet were added up dates or changes in 1922,1923, 1926, 1927, 1930 and 1937. But, very very little changed from 1920. Also remember by 1922 most of the victory medals had been awarded. These changes were more for history.

Hi Bill good to see you are back, And, yes I do believe this is the 3rd Repro type. Jim

Lambert, Major John Huffer initially flew with the French (Lafayette Flying Corps),

The French Victory medal is a firm yes, as I have seen others in the same situation receive this medal plus other French medals. As far as just receiving the Defensive Sector clasp, it too is also a possibility . Why because it would depend at what point he became part of the 94th. He then might have when to the 93rd after the war or during the Occupation of period. Try is site http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/

The 94th was entitled to these, Champagne-Marne, Aisne-Marne, St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne and Defensive Sector clasps. The 93rd was entitled to these, St. Mihiel, Meuse-Argonne and Defensive Sector clasps. This is what each of these two Units would have entitled to up to 1922. As to what each man received I am not sure. Yet, In 1922 there were slight changes made to a few of the different units clasp count. But by then 97% of the medals had already been issued so I fell it did not factor in what your man received and would have been more for historical count. Jim