johnnymac

Hi Lambert, You are correct about the RUSSIA, ITALY, FRANCE, SIBERIA and ENGLAND, because these clasp are strictly for service in that country. The other 14 named clasps are Army clasps and which was awarded for "Battle or combat". They have battle stars at each end of the clasp, where as the 5 service chaps does not have any stars at each end.

To all, I also posted this on the U.S. Militaria Forum. This is a great place to get info on just U.S. medals, uniforms, guns etc. June 7, 1919, France, A.E.F., Gen. Pershing. General Headquarters - General Pershing sends a cablegram to the War Department . Many of his officers and commanders had pleaded their case of how each of them fought and occupied sectors in different engagements during this horrific war. General Pershing understood the needs of each of his unit commanders. He wrote the War Department recognizing those individuals and organizations, many of which suffered heavy casualties. Who would be deprived to the right to wear a battle clasp if they were only awarded to personnel engaged in one of the 13 named major operations. Secretary of War, Baker replies: "The following premise that I have adopted is that the entire war was in reality a continuous battle. The effect of this premise is that all soldiers occupying a sector, whether active or quiet, is entitled as a participation in battle under Par. 244". With this, General Pershing is granted his request and the "Defensive Sector" clasp was added as the 14th battle clasps. It is necessary to understand the importance of the Defensive Sector battle clasp. The word "battle" is not my word; it was attached to the Defensive Sector battle clasp by General Pershing and the War Department. This clasp stood for all the night patrols in no-man's land, the daily artillery and machine gun fire, not to mention the very active enemy snipers or the balloonist who were under fire from both the ground and air. We must also not forget the men who ran the daily gun fire to truck supplies and ammo to the front or those who also ran the gun fire to get food to the troops in the trenches. Hollywood has made it all look so easy but there was no crease fire as seen in the movies as men dashed out to help a fallen comrade. To all these unknown and forgotten heroes, this battle clasp makes a statement to the world. "I was there in the thick of it all".

Bill, its a beautiful medal and i am glad you purchased it. I know in the future you will value it as one of your better buys, Jim

Bill, Thanks for posting both articles are interest read. There is lot more to this story but for now I will have to leave it unread. Jim

To all, I have been asked about the Army's Silver Citation Star and what a true Citation star would look like. That is a very easy question to answer. The Government awards board, in 1932, wanted to keep the lineage. So, they had that same Citation Silver Star incorporated into the new medal. The designer, Rudolf Freund of Bailey, Banks and Biddle, refined it in shape. He placed the citation star in the center of the Silver Star. You will find most of these Citation Silver Stars on the Victory medals. Also the 3/16 bronze stars for the service ribbon are the same size & shape. Jim

Both lists are very good sources. If you are looking for particular units entitlements use these two list as a starting point. But then take it one step further, do your own research by looking up their history either on the units websites or by unit history books. I would say the units listed are good with a +/- of maybe one or two of the units I checked it out. I checked it about two years ago. (These two list you posted were done on 9/9/12 and 9/9/15).

Yes, thanks for the come back.

Thanks, and I know if you do not have one then maybe it never was. Even Laslo did not illustrate one in his book. So why would Laslo list it, unless it a one of a kind? Any thoughts?

Lambert & RobW There is a large population of Cubans living in the south Miami area which is in located in the state of Florida. It seem like most of the medals you two speak of as being for sale, come from Miami. The people living in Miami have daily contact with old family members who still live in Cuba. The standard of living in Cuba, as we in the USA hear is not good. So, I think a lot of the older Cubans send these medals to a family member living in USA to supplements their income. Of course this is just my feeling as to why there is a lot of Cuban Vic's on ebay. Rob, would you not agree that there is 4 and not just 2 as you just mentioned? (1) The official strike (2) a gilt official strike (3) a very early unofficial strike and the (4) Cuban made gilt strike, which was made by VILARDEBO y RIERA of Havana. He was the official military supplier for the Cuban Government from the early 1920's into the 1950's? Alex Laslo's book was written 20 years ago and as we all know more medals has surfaced since his book. Jim

On this date 02 July 2012 - 19:10 I posted this question, why out and answer? So once more I ask, does anyone have a 1915-1918 Italian Victory medal listed in Lasolss book that they would be willing to share with us all by posting it, showing both sides. Thanks Jim

Rob that was a very nice Greek medal you found for Mel, Jim

That clasp is a Gleim FI, listed in Alexander Laslo's book 2nd ed. It comes in all 19 of the Navy Duty clasps, and all 14 the Army battles and all 5 Service clasps. It hit the market in the USA in the mid 60's. It is listed as a F for Fake by Gleim himself. Jim

Rob I do have some of type 2 that are original and are 3mm. Also I was wondering did you know there was a 35mm out there? Being in the U.S. and collecting as long as I have, has been a plus for me, The UK is where i fall to the back of the pack as far as information, and it being available for study. Jim

Thanks Kevin

Rob, as to the Medal, yes many of these modern medals, minus the clasp are to be found on the internet for sale today. Is yours the 35mm or 36mm, as both 1 and 2 type suspensions can also be found for sale. Here is an example of the type 2.

Rob to answer your question on the silver Romanian War Cross Was is it "exception to the rule". I do have to ask, was that R.W.M. medal made for a veteran? Or for a growing collector's market who can't get the real medal? The same would apply here, were either of these two silver U.S. vic's made for veterans? or for a growing collector's market? Or were they made as and implied to be a rare and new medal. I'll stand by what I feel is a proper term for my two silver medals, fakes until there is a firm answer to why they excite. In collecting I use the highway road sign "STOP" look both way before proceeding.

Rob I own three different "Offensive Sector" clasps. The one you just listed and these two. Clasps "OFFENSIVE SECTOR" has been done by every one of the 5 per 1960's sellers of "Fantasy" clasps. To me the word fantasy is just nicer work then the fake and but many prefer that word, fantasy. Regards to all, Jim

Yes Rob, I do own this medal. I put it at the top of my collection. Regards and thanks for asking, Jim

To all, This is a legitimate Victory medal which was made up for the Army and veteran museums. Possibility from a Veterans hall like the American Legion which was formed in 1919. The ring, the planchet, the ribbon, the brooch and all the 19 different clasps are all original. France, Italy, England, Russia, Siberia, Cambrai, Somme Defense, Lys, Aisne, Montdidier-Noyon, Aisne-Marne, Somme-Offense, Oise-Aisne, Ypres-Lys, St. Mihiel, Meuse-Argonne, Vittoroi-Venteto and the Defensive Sector. I have seen only two others in 40 + years. One Washington D.C. and one in a military collectors show. I do not know how to make the photo larger sorry. I do hope you enjoy this rare medal

Kevin, I respect and thank you for the defense of all your thoughts. I truly can see where "you" are coming from. But I am turning out the lights and pulling on this medal to bed. There are no many on this tread who would voice their views so I add again thank you for keeping thinks from becoming boring. I'll end by saying if we were ever to meet, let's sit in a cafe and I will order a Brandy Manhattan on the rocks, "light on the vermouth" and salute you a fellow collector, Jim

To All, I agree with Bill, that the medal in the grouping might be an unofficial type-3. http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1130 But the question remains: is the silver Romanian medal we have been talking about for 6-7 days just another unofficial type medal covered by decision 847 and was never before reported, and was it used by Romanian veterans or is it a fake? The photo of the Romanian medal in the group, Bill's posted site made reference to, gives that unofficial type-3 medal legitimacy. I also believe there are many other types of unofficial Victory medals from other countries that have not yet been added to the list of unofficial medals. Laslo's list is the starting point not ending point. No one that I know has found mention of a silver type victory medal in any documentation from any country. Yet, many of us know the silver colored Victory medals do exist. Were the silver colored ones sold to the general public, so as not to be confused with the medals being issued to or purchased by the veterans? Until real supporting evident is found, such as a photo, I will remain firm in my belief that the silver victory medal is a very questionable medal. Is it collectable," yes", but at what price. This, my friends, is the bottom line for all who collect.

To All, These 5 medals are Romanian medals in my collection. The 6 is the silver medal in question. If you look at the letter "M" both 5 & 6 are alike. So alike it hard to believe these were made up as unofficial medals in different places. If you will note the top link of the chain, the rim shape and the ring suspension of both 5 & 6 they match without question as does their letter "M". I doubt that silver medal was not being made by Decision No. 847. Even with drawing all these different medal smith each came up with noticeable differences in their final medal, but not number 6 the one in question. I trust that all you will agree had medal maker number 5 wanted a medal in silver, he could or would have just stamped one out using his own dies. So why do we find this poor example in silver, was someone faking cast made by using a Number 5 medal?

Kevin, Your assumption is that this medal is a Romanian made medal when in fact you do not know where, or who made it, or even when it was made. The only fact that is known about this medal is it is poorly made and is possibly a sand cast medal! the truth of the matter is all the manufacturers all the Romanian medals are unknown, Laslo hints Paris, maybe, as this medal is being sold from Paris France, and not from Romania. I for one passed on this item as being too costly at $500, and the bidding ended without one bid, so I guess I was not the only one passing on this medal.

Hi Kevin, So your point is that anything made in Romanian is by decision No.847 unofficial? Would not that rule also cover all Romanian medals ever ones made in other countries since there was no effort by the original manufacturer or government to issue a standard medal? Your quote of A. Laslo's book. The unofficial verities of the Rumanian Victory Medal may have been prompted by a provision in Decision No. 847 which allowed veterans, after obtaining the authorizing brevet, to wear a facsimile Victory Medal purchased from a commercial source until the official version was sent and received. Given this sanction, it is speculated that several military outfitters began to produce the Victory Medal in advance of the official striking to meet perceived demand among veterans. Lacking an official example to use as a model, these outfitters had to resort to drawings of the medals design to fashion the dies which made a refined product more difficult to achieve. May have been - tell me that Laslo did not know for sure. speculated - Form's a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence. So this whole paragraph you quoted is based on Laslo's own believes or conjecture. Mr. Laslo put out a great book, but I known had he had full power of the internet as we do today, his book would have been different. But like most great books, history has proven to us there is always something to be added, unless the book is not novel.

Question: How many Mono Lisa are there: The answer is that there are many, in fact dozens, of roughly-contemporary copies of the Mona Lisa, many better-looking than this one. There’s one at the Walters Museum in Baltimore that is closer to the original. ”Mona Lisa” was wildly influential and fashionable, particularly in France, after it had been acquired by Francois I after Leonardo’s death, and it entered the French royal collection . "In the art world the other Mona Lisa's are false or fake, but politeness in the art buying world they are called copies". Like the Mona Lisa, there was only the original Victory medal from each country, all the rest are whatever you think they are. :)