farmer

Linas, Although I was not the one who questioned that - I'll try to comment. LII examples made by Bertrand are quite rare, some collectors even question if that firm even made that particular Order. I have seen one myself but in higher class (star of Grand Officer - that was marked with Bertrand's plaque on reverse). Square mark of 'A*B & Cie' was used relatively late (1930's on) and on silver examples post WW2 that would often have 'AB&Cie 800' mark (at times even missing the normal silver mark). Punch mark in 'diamond' shape of 'AB&Cie' was used earlier - very hard to ascertain exact dates but according to my correspondence with Lady Bertrand (this was some time ago) indication of 1908- late 1920's. In my experience, this firm did not mark all of their pieces (French and others) so it can be difficult to judge without seeing marked insignia of same type. Hope this helps.

Hello, This is most likely made by Fisch and such style was used from mid 1920's into 1950's. Base on my experience - most likely late 1930's. Hope this helps.

Tim, I cannot see your images since I am not a full member (just signed up) but since L1 Order is my main collecting focus I'd like to add to posts above. There were many manufacturers of the Order of Leopold I. Each finished their badges with different level of detail. Dating pieces by the French/Flemish inscription is only sp accurate. Crown types in use are a better way (there were several types) along with manufacturer's details. Wolfers's pieces are usually easy to spot and are probably some of finest made. Fisch, Heremans and Fonson are probably the most encountered manufacturers from that time period (WW1-WW2) and all have their own subtleties in design/finish. There were of course many more makers. French pieces are typically of finer quality but scarcer. In my collection (nearly 400 in the Knight class) I can tell variances even amongst crosses of same manufacturer. Enamel colour of the wreath (green) can range greatly - even on Wolfers-made Knights of same period - hence this is not a reliable method of dating. Not a definite method but most of WW1 period pieces would use a 'classic' type crown where as WW2 period saw the 'massive' crown design. Note this is only accurate in the Knight/Officer classes. Higher grades differed considerably. As a last note, beware of the ribbons with special attributes (gold striping) as majority of those I see in commerce are newer ribbons added to attain higher value. There were (comperatively) very few awards of those made. Hope this helps.

Hello, Very interesting thread. To add to Kev's post - OLD ribbon's watermarking (moiré) will often suffer if exposed to water (spit) etc. This can vary from partial to complete 'vanishing' of the marking. Shall one want/need to clean their piece - try removing ribbon. This of course varies with each medal/order but in some cases jump rings are not sealed (soldered) and can be lightly bent to remove (together with ribbon). Of course, handling of old and often fragile ribbons can result in damage and we all know how hard it is to find old stock ribbon to replace (if even possible in many cases). From my experience: typically, French and Swiss made ribbons are very delicate in that regard. German, Dutch and Belgian produced ribbons will 'take' it better. English, Austrian and Italian ribbons seem to be most durable.