J Temple-West

Yep..."nice catch"..nice hinge, rivets, wreath and eagle, everything expected of a 2nd pattern 'Juncker'

Ian, you?re a club member?a part of the family. Help is there if help is needed.

Social Welfare medal.

A most interesting thread. Here are a couple of women?s awards with typical ribbon bow set-ups. 1st up: Women?s cross of the Red Cross.

Spot on, Ian. Other points: size of catch-plate, length of hinge/hinge-plate.

Luckily we have a clear shot of the reverse, and comparison clearly shows that the badge in question (below) differs quite a lot from the original, above. So, let?s see if you can point out the areas of concern that I have.

Ian Firstly, let me say that?. and this is a personal thing?. the ?Osang? maker mark is probably the most used by fakers so any piece I would consider buying would have to be totally textbook. It?s a pity that we don?t have a full frontal of the clasp. If we did, I think you would find that the wreath (although close) is somewhat different from the original.

Hi Ian I wouldn't touch any of them.

Known makers of the Luftwaffe Flyer's Commemorative Badge are as follows: C.E Juncker. Berlin

Known makers of the Luftwaffe Ground Combat Badge are as follows: C.E Juncker. Berlin SW G.H Osang. Dresden M U K 5 Rudolf Karneth & Sohne. Gablonz GWL (Gebrüder Wegerhoff. Lüdenscheid) Gustav Brehmer. Markneukirchen Arno Wallpach. Metallwarenfabrik. Salzburg Hammer & Sohne Unmarked - by unknown makers

Known makers of the Luftwaffe Flak Badge are as follows: F.W Assmann & Söhne. Lüdenscheid C.E Juncker. Berlin SW B&NL (Berg & Nolte. Lüdenscheid) GWL (Gebrüder Wegerhoff. Lüdenscheid) Gustav Brehmer. Markneukirchen Walter & Henlein. Gablonz E. Ferdinand Wiedmann. Frankfurt Steinhauer & Luck. Lüdenscheid Unmarked " ball hinge" attributed to Adolf Scholze. Grunwald

Known makers of the Luftwaffe Paratrooper's Badge are as follows: F.W Assmann & Sohne. Lüdenscheid C.E Juncker. Berlin SW W.Deumer. Lüdenscheid BSW (Brüder Schneider AG. Wien) GWL (Gebrüder Wegerhoff. Lüdenscheid) Paul Meybauer. Berlin G.H Osang. Dresden JMME & Sohn. Berlin Josef Feix & Sohne. Gablonz B&NL (Berg & Nolte. Lüdenscheid) Friedrich Linden. Lüdenscheid

Known makers of the Luftwaffe Air Gunner/Flight Engineer's Badge (unqualified) are as follows: C.E Juncker. Berlin SW W.Deumer. Lüdenscheid

Known makers of the Luftwaffe Air Gunner/Flight Engineer?s Badge are as follows: F.W Assmann & Söhne. Lüdenscheid C.E Juncker. Berlin SW W.Deumer. Lüdenscheid BSW (Brüder Schneider AG. Wien) GWL (Gebrüder Wegerhoff. Lüdenscheid) JMME & Sohn. Berlin B&NL (Berg & Nolte. Lüdenscheid) Friedrich Linden. Lüdenscheid

Known makers of the Luftwaffe Radio Operator/Air Gunner's Badge are as follows: F.W Assmann & Söhne. Lüdenscheid C.E Juncker. Berlin SW W.Deumer. Lüdenscheid BSW (Brüder Schneider AG. Wien) GWL (Gebrüder Wegerhoff. Lüdenscheid) JMME & Sohn. Berlin B&NL (Berg & Nolte. Lüdenscheid) Friedrich Linden. Lüdenscheid

Known makers of the Luftwaffe Glider Pilot's Badge are as follows: Official makers: C.E Juncker. Berlin SW BSW (Brüder Schneider.Wien) Private purchases pieces: M.F.P. ? Posen

Known makers of the Luftwaffe Combined Pilot/Observer badge are as follows: F.W Assmann & Söhne. Lüdenscheid C.E Juncker. Berlin SW W.Deumer. Lüdenscheid BSW (Brüder Schneider AG. Wien) GWL (Gebrüder Wegerhoff. Lüdenscheid) JMME & Sohn. Berlin Friedrich Linden. Lüdenscheid

Known makers of the Luftwaffe Observer's Badge are as follows: F.W Assmann & Söhne. Lüdenscheid C.E Juncker. Berlin SW W.Deumer. Lüdenscheid Paul Meybauer. Berlin GWL (Gebrüder Wegerhoff. Lüdenscheid) JMME & Sohn. Berlin Friedrich Linden. Lüdenscheid

Not all makers produced the full range of Luftwaffe awards. This guide gives the answer to a question that?s often asked: ?Which maker made a particular award?? Any mistakes or additions?let me know. Luftwaffe qualification & combat awards Pilot's Badge (Flugzeugführerabzeichen) Observer's Badge (Beobachterabzeichen) Combined Pilot/Observer badge (Gemeinsames Flugzeugführer und Beobachterabzeichen) Glider Pilot's Badge (SegelFlugzeugführerabzeichen) Radio Operator/Air Gunner?s Badge (Fliegerschützenazeichen für Bordfunker)) Air Gunner/ Flight Engineer's Badge (Fliegerschützenabzeichen für Bordschutzen u. Bordmechaniker) Air Gunner/ Flight Engineer's Badge (unqualified) Paratrooper's Badge (Fallschirmschützenabzeichen) Flyer's Commemorative Badge (Flieger-Erinneurungsabzeichen) Flak Badge (Flak Kampfabzeichen der Luftwaffe) Ground Combat Badge (Erdkampfabzeichen der luftwaffe) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Known makers of the Luftwaffe Pilot's Badge are as follows: F.W Assmann & Sohne. Lüdenscheid C.E Juncker. Berlin SW W.Deumer. Lüdenscheid BSW (Brüder Schneider AG. Wien) GWL (Gebrüder Wegerhoff. Lüdenscheid) OM JMME & Sohn. Berlin B&NL (Berg & Nolte. Lüdenscheid) Friedrich Linden. Lüdenscheid

Ian The best source, by far, is the forum. The ?search? button will take you to a database of all the makers. Type in the maker you?re looking for and you will find photographic examples all patterns produced during the TR era. There is also a database of a lot of the fakes that can be found out there. http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=16190

It?s all a matter of experience, and listening to your gut. When you get to know the characteristics of makers and compare them to badges you?re thinking of buying, certain questions arise: do the characteristics match those of known originals? Are the hinge, catch, rivets, methods of construction and finishing correct? Of course, these points are not always 100% foolproof as there are certain types of fake that are so close that the only way to tell original from fake is by comparing weight and measurements. To this end? I would suggest that you invest in a good set of digital scales and digital ?vernier? callipers. The other type of ?bogus? piece to look out for is the ?up-grade.? Original Pilot?s badges re-finished to look like Pilot Observer badges, day fighter clasps having the wreath painted black to look like night fighter clasps, Air Gunner badges re-finished to look like the unqualified version, and so on. Yes, a steep learning curve but the more you compare the more questions you ask and the more you handle originals, the easier it becomes. Remember, if your gut tells you it?s suspicious, it?s probably right. At the very least don?t part with any cash until you?ve checked it out. Anyway, to answer you question regarding this particular badge? Simply: it looks like a Pilot?s badge but has none of the characteristics of any known original.

Again, the wreath is based on one by 'Assmann' and has the pronounced 'dip'... The eagle is just based on someone's imagination. Nasty!!

I?d go for it being a good one. This type of maker mark has been discussed at length and is accepted as the ?Type 2? by the collecting community.

Close-up of an Assmann wreath (left) and fake (right)

A good question, and one often asked. Fakers will try every trick in the book to produce a badge that will pass muster. This includes cast copies of original badges, the production of fantasy pieces, the use of parts based on original badges etc. A side by side comparison of this badge and an original ?Assmann? pilots badge will show that this particular fake?s wreath is based on that of an ?Assmann.? As can be seen, Assmann badges have a slight dip in the wreath (a characteristic the fakers have tried to reproduce) but not as pronounced as the dip in the wreath of the fake?hence the term ?dipping or ?dipped? wreath. Once your eye becomes tuned into the characteristics of individual makers, it becomes easier to detect the myriad of fakes out there. What is most important for the new collector is that questions are asked before parting with hard earned cash, something I?m pleased to see you?re doing, Ian. So, some comparisons. Original Assmann pilot?s badge (left)?Fake (right)