RichieC

Thanks Jim... These little guys are one of my obsessions... Stewart, I sent the most recent images to Den. He asked for a super-macro of the hammer & plow motif, and also wants to know if the star itself is of steel or tin (in other words, if it is drawn to a magnet)...

Do you really think that it looks like Val Kilmer Stoo? I thought that it resembles M.V.Frunze... Whatever the case may be, it is fun to try and find out.

Here is from Den: Могли и вот так использовать , как М.В.Фрунзе. Как гласит приказ по Флоту и Морскому ведомству №773 от 18 ноября 1918 года. Подписанный членом коллегии Народного комиссариата по морским делам и членом РВСР Ф.Ф.Раскольниковым . ?Ввиду того, что матросской одеждой прикрываются нередко развращенные элементы вплоть до контрреволюционных бунтовщиков, приказываю распространить на военных моряков революционную воинскую кокарду "Красная звезда с плугом и молотом". Отныне ношение ее бывшим матросам, не входящим в состав советских вооруженных сил, строжайше воспрещается; отныне революционный знак - Красная Звезда является внешним выражением единства красного флота и красной армии. После выхода этого приказа, ?Красная звезда? могла носиться военными моряками на головном уборе, на обмундировании (на левой стороне груди) и, по желанию, в петлице гражданского платья (для тех лиц, которые числились по Народному Комиссариату по Морским делам). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ And a lousy e-translation (but one can "get the point"): As the order on Fleet and Sea department №773 from November, 18th, 1918 says. Signed by a member of board of the National commissariat on sea affairs and member РВСР of F.F.Raskolnikovym. ? Whereas the sailor's clothes cover quite often corrupted elements down to counterrevolutionary rebels, order to distribute to military seamen a revolutionary military cocarde " the Red star with a plough and ground ". Henceforth carrying to its former sailors who are not a part of the Soviet armed forces, is more strict it is forbidden; henceforth the revolutionary sign - the Red Star is external expression of unity of red fleet and red army. After an output of this order, ? the Red star ? could rush military seamen on a headdress, on regimentals (on the left party of a breast) and, at will, in a buttonhole of a civil dress (for those persons who were registered on the National Commissariat on Sea affairs). Stewart, he also said to take some better photos; A super macro(s) where the stud meets the reverse of the star, the obverse, and the reverse of the nut. Also, if you measure the thread and pitch of the stud and report your findings, that would be a great help. I believe another guy stated that the stud and nut should not be metric....

Stewart, I await an answer from Den. I have read that modern enamel glows when introduced to black light. Perhaps the "medal/order-philes" here can attest to this? If it is so, do you have access to one so you can test it?

...BTW, we can always ask Denis Rodichev, the cap star man, and get his opinion?

Interesting piece Stewart. Perhaps it was designed for use with one of those early, thick Budionovka or other type of heavy winter cap, civilian type or otherwise? In any case, it is very nicey-nice...

Both are prongback, with both missing their prongs as they seem to made of thin and rigid tin. I have viewed a multi-piece hammer/plough star in a Russian associate's collection, and have photographed it. However, in which file I saved it in I know not... I can almost remember that it was indeed a screwback. We will see...

Right on Daredevil... I remember in "the beginning" that this was a common thing. There were so may pieces with real date/mfg stamps that "mysteriously" had the last digit or two crudely erased. Even worse, more than once I have seen a hunk of fabric missing from that same spot. I have a few pieces that possess that notable feature. I'll dig them up and take a few images just for conversation's sake. It is a pity though that nowadays, there is such a flood of 100% "fuflo" things out there, and that people are gobbling them up simply because it has a stamp (which is just as fake as the item it resides in)...

...and BTW. The chinstrap buttons that are affixed with the prongs are a sign of late 40s/ 50s mfg also.

It is certainly not a fake cap in my opinion Nack. Without even touching it, I can see it from here. Judging from my experiences, the sweatband is correct for late 40s/early 50s mfg. The chinstrap is not one of those flimsy, paper thin ones that are on the fakes, and the visor has nice age patina and crazing also. As Stewart wrote earlier, the only thing that does not seem right is the stamp. It could be a legit, but I think that more likely than not, it simply could have been added at one point in the past to increase the sale price by a few bucks. Us gullible Westerners just LOVE date stamps and markings. Really....

...and BTW, there exist NO experts. However, there are a few out there that know hell of a lot.

My wish is that you box it up, less cap, orders, & medals if you want to keep at least some memento(s) of your former ownership of such a nice thing, and send it to me Global Express Mail with full insurance so I may have a comprehensive look-see... Whether or not I return it is another issue... Golly...

Just for the sake of the thread, here is another's take on your set-up Doc (I will leave translation up to you): если исходить из того, что это комплект на одного человека, то сказать можно следующее: 1. нашивки по годам службы в КГБ устанорвлены 8.07.1974 г. 2. Отменены они 27.11.1982 г. 3. Металлические буквы официально отменены в 1980 г. И при датировке необходимо иметь в виду то, что солдаты, при увольнении в запас, годички нашивали еще года 2-3 после их отмены. А буквы дембеля использовали до конца 80-х гг.

Thanks for the correction(s) men... I am still a bit green concerning later regulation, and should not post info that I receive "second-hand" without doing the research myself... I admit that I was trying to sound like a "know it all". Really... In any case, where can one find online or printed reference about late 50s > regulation? I have one or two pieces myself that sit moth-balled in a closet and are of no consequence to my collection or my intellectual pursuits by being there

I have sent off images of your (Nack) NKVD visor cap to Voronov, and, for further input, to a Russian language group that I check into from time to time, where there exists a few knowledgeable men... I have inquired with them concerning the round visor attribute and how it coincides with what I wrote previously about it existing on late 30s/early 40s caps. This subject (of visors) has always been one especially of interest to me. Date/mfg/depot/reissue stamps, & "museum" markings also. However, most of the time, the latter I have determined turn out to be merely a tool of the unscrupulous seller... As soon as I have replies, I will show them here accordingly. Nack, please, let us see the uniform you speak of that goes with your cap. I, and would assume the others, enjoy viewing what others have and discussing it.

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The star cockarde is actually an early 40s one piece type. I assume it looks like a 1930s two-piece variation because it retains the high quality of pre-war times. As far as the faded crown goes, my only guess is that the blue dye was of poor quality and after a few scrubbings, it simply faded to the powder-blue colour that we see now. I would think the band would have faded also in a similar degree if it were indeed exposed to long periods of "blasting" sun... In any case, who knows? At times, I wish that these things could talk... Here are a few more images of NKVD related caps that span from the late 30s to the early 50s;

Very nice photos... For the sake of the theme and if you are interested, I am fairly close with Valantin Voronov, who is pretty "up & up" on early NKVD stuff, especially small details. He loves to "talk" about stuff and may be able to tell us more about your cap and it's stamp, and might even be able to tell us in which factory it was made. In any case, here is an image of my State Security cap. It has seen better days, the pitiful thing...

Right on... Just to add that they belonged to a soldier of the second year of service, pre-1972 pattern.

I have never seen such a stamp on an original or repro cap to make a comment about it.... other than it appears to read a Moscow mfg, a size of 58, and a 1940 date. Perhaps while you have your camera out and working, how about a close-up of the star and a shot of the entire underside(?), so we may see the lining, sweatband, and the actual shape of your visor. There did exist more than a few caps in the late 30s, early 40s with rounded visors. As far as your other two caps are concerned, more photos would be a plus in order to discuss their attributes... It would also be interesting to hear your description of them for the sake of conversation.

Post up a nice image of your cap and "stamp", and possibly we can assist you in figuring out what you have... With pleasure...

They all appear to be 1985 pieces Pete... Not worth $200.00 either IMO...

...and this type holds 44MM jars.

Exactly Kim... All four standard size stars (up to 35MM) fit comfortably. The Militia stars are a bit tougher to squeeze in, but they do fit satisfactorily without the jar's lid. In any case, these mounts are available on the internet and at many shows. Average price is about $15.00 US. They come in a cardboard tray with a glass lid just the same as a standard Riker mount. This one has 34MM size jars which house the 20MM Pilotka and 27MM "Bezka" type stars brilliantly...