Christian Zulus

Dear Nick, many thanks for restoring our fruitful, scientific & peaceful discussion about NATO-combat-losses during operation "Allied Force" and for removing some inappropriate offences among GMIC-members , but keep your "moderator" a little bit more under control in such sensitive GMIC-sections, as Yugoslavia . It's O.K., if a "moderator" temporarly removes a thread, which contains some offences towards other GMIC-members, for your review. That's a normal and correct way of handling such a platform in a peaceful way. But it is not correct, if your "moderator" removes a whole and large thread completly without any notice, that this thread is removed temporarly for the chairman's review. It is also not correct, if the same "moderator" removes my posting, where I had been asking you about the whole procedure. That nasty incident, caused by your "moderator", has upset a large number of meritorious GMIC-members and "big" contributors to your club. GMIC-Yugoslavia is a rather new section and grows in rapid pace: There is a hughe interest in ODM of that former state and also in the history behind these awards. GMIC-Yugoslavia attracts a wide range of "old" GMIC-members and created a respectful number of "new" GMIC-members. Coming back to your statement: "We are here to discuss military collectables." I just want to remind you, that no other military conflict of former Yugoslavia - except WW II - "produced" so many orders & medals, as the last one in 1999: The operation "Allied Force". Even the rarest and most prestigeous YU-order, the "Order of Freedom", had been confered 2 times: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=19610 . The NATO-war-1999 represents also a large field for collectors of other militaria items, as relicts of US-aircrafts, cruise missiles, etc., as I showed in that thread: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=13964 . So, operation "Allied Force" should have it's place at Gentleman's Military Interest Club, as all the Iraq-stuff and Middle-East-items have their place at your platform. Dear Nick, GMIC is your legal property. So it is up to you, to kick out the YU-collectors and to add to the GMIC-coat of arms: "For the serious collector of military history - collectors with ties to former Yugoslavia please keep away." But I won't think, that this would be a very wise decision, even if some of your "moderators" might strongly support such a development . "However this forum is not here to raise political objections about the rights or wrongs of military conflicts, nor is it designed to give an audience to persons trying to further their own political viewpoint or agenda." - excellent words, Nick, which I support 100 %. It's O.K. to keep out ethical or political questions from military platforms, but not such hard facts like: KIAs, damaged aircrafts, violations of international laws & agreements, etc., etc. If you want to keep out any scientific discussion out of GMIC, except such about the enamel of one medal or the content of gold of another medal, then GMIC will become rather boring within short time. I hope, that GMIC-YU will keep on it's fruitful & peaceful development and such nasty incidents will not happen anymore. I also want to remind some - rather "new" - members of GMIC, that other GMIC-members have to be treated with full respect, even if they post some stuff, which turns out - from the historians point of view - to be obsolete and wrong. Best regards Christian

Dear Kevin, that item looks great . Can you name the orders ? Best regards Christian

Might be also Klosterneuburg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klosterneuburg with a rather similar coat of arms: I guess, that 3 towers + city wall is a rather common symbol at coat of arms ... Best regards Christian

Dear Richard, if you are looking for a comprehensive reference book about the 1st Republic, then Prof. G?nter Erik Schmidt's book "Ehrenzeichen und Orden im ?sterreich der Zwischenkriegszeit 1918-1938" (189 pages) would be the right one. MGM M?nzgalerie M?nchen offers a copy for only EUR 48,- http://www.muenzgalerie.de/kataloge/pdfs/n...eratur_2006.pdf Best regards Christian

Dear Ed, well, I don't have a glue and couldn't find any hints in my library or in the internet . Best regards Christian

Dear Sergey, many thanks for your translation and expertise . Best regards Christian

Dear Sergey, many thanks for your interest . Can you tell me what the "Truda i Nauka .... " inscription at the "1st of May Badge" with Lenin adressing the masses exactly says - many thanks . Best regards Christian

Dear Charles, many thanks for your contribution . No, if you look at Ivan's table http://members.tripod.com/IvanLucky/table.htm , most of the 218 KIAs are soldiers, field medics, rescue teams, etc. from helicopter crashes. Only a small number of KIAs had been jet-pilots. So, your ratio of comparison: flown sorties vs. pilot-KIAs will result in an even lower number. AND Yugoslavia had in the 1990s one of the most sophisticated air defense systems in Europe - only to compare with Switzerland - either mobile or hidden in mountains and with state-of-the-art technology from the Russian Federation. Best regards Christian

Dear Johannes, many thanks for your expertise . So, the military arm of the VF ("Fatherland Front") had been called "Frontmiliz". Best regards Christian

Dear Chris, yes, up to a certain degree that might be realistic - in some cases. The families of US-soldiers, who serve in "certain" units, never know, where their father or husband is really doing his duty. Ask a wife of a "Green Beret"-NCO, if she always knows, where her husband is located . "Athinaiki" is a leading daily newspaper in Athens, Greece - a NATO-member! That paper reported several incidents, where dead or wounded NATO-soldiers and pilots where brought to Macedonia and Greece: http://www.serbia-info.com/news/1999-04/04/10496.html http://www.serbia-info.com/news/1999-04/05/10542.html The renowed Austrian historian Dr. Hannes Hofbauer published in 2001 a book "BALKANKRIEG - Zehn Jahre Zerst?rung Jugoslawiens", where he list on p. 199 all the strange accidents & crashes at far away places: Israel, Japan, Puerto Rico, Kentucky and Arizona. According to US-Forces-statistics, there happend a large number of accidents - far above average - in spring/summer 1999: http://www.mediashop.at/023osteu/203hhbalkan.htm http://www.amazon.de/Balkankrieg-Zehn-Jahr...s/dp/3853711790 Well, I don't believe in 218 KIAs, but I also don't believe in zero-casualities. The historical truth will be somewhere between 0 and 218, I assume. Best regards Christian

Dear Kevin, specially that point seems to have faded out a bit via historical reasearch: Racak-massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racak , the "trigger" for the bombardment, turned out to be a 100 % fake, organized by the Albanian KLA-brigades. When you study international reports - specially from the German foreign office - about the situation in Kosovo in spring 1999, then you will find no striking incidents regarding human rights and so on. Milosevic had been a bad ruler of YU and for the YU-citizens, no doubt about that. Well, you and Ed are right: The historical research actually didn't start at a large & international scale. But one point is 100 % clear: NATO violated several international laws and regulations - and also some NATO-countries (i.e.: Germany) violated their own constitution. Maybe in 50 years the history of the 4 YU-Wars of the 1990s might be as well researched, as the history of WW II. Best regards Christian

Gentlemen, many thanks for your interest . No, that 1929-Turnerbund-Badge was not for the cap. It was just a (larger) lapel pin, worne on the jacket. The main political parties in Austria between the two World Wars had coloured flowers as a symbol: - blue: Nazi - red: Socialdemocrats - white: Christian Socials http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=19869 Best regards Christian

Dear Hardy, that's what I also guessed - maybe shoulderboards from firefighters ? The crest of G?rz http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorizia : It's not exactly ident - maybe another town in old Austria ? Best regards Christian

Dear Sasa, the 3rd class has two tiny silver marks at the rv., but the 2nd class has no silver marks at all. But the 2nd class is made of silver, as I pointed out in the previous posting. Maybe the thick gold wash covered the tiny silver marks at the 2nd class ? Sasa, do you know the weight of a 2nd class made of tombac? Best regards Christian

Turnerbund-Badge with a secret at the rv. - the secret: What can we make out the rv. ? A blue cornflower, the symbol of the Nazi-movement in Austria The cornflower (made of paper) is fixed at the pin and you can wear the Austrian Nazi-symbol hidden away under the badge or turned up at the top of the badge, when you are among "friends" or PGs (= Parteigenossen, partymembers) . Here is the normal membership badge of the "Deutscher Turnerbund": I got both items from an (very) old relative in my family, who had been member of the Turnerbund in the late 1920s in Vienna and told the story of the blue paper flower to me. Best regards Christian

Turnerbund-Badge with a secret at the rv. Gentlemen, that's a rather large Badge of the "Deutscher Turnerbund" commemorating the 10 year jubilee of the Turngau Vienna in 1929: The Turnerbund in Austria had been in the 1920s and early 1930s - more or less - an organisation of the so called "illegal" Nazis. Let's have a look at the rv. of that badge

"1st of May Badge" rv.:

"1st of May Badge" of the Austrian Communists from 1926 Dear Belaruski, that's the mentioned "1st of May Badge" av.: It shows Lenin adressing the people with an Russian inscription on the badge. Best regards Christian

Badge of the Heimatschutz (Home Guard) Gentlemen, that's a - rather large - badge of the Austrian Heimatschutz (Home Guard), the military arm of the "Vaterl?ndische Front" ("Fatherland Front") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotic_Front_%28Austria%29 , commemorating a meeting at the 14th of march 1933 in Schoenbrunn, Vienna: Does anyone know more facts about that badge ? Best regards Christian

Dear Johannes, many thanks for the information . I didn't know, that the CS-symbol had been a Alba-Rose . Best regards Christian

Membership-badge of the Christian Social Party Gentlemen, that's a membership-badge of the Christian Social Party of Austria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Soc...y_%28Austria%29 , the dominating political party in the 1st Republic of Austria. In 1933 that party had been incorporated into the fascist "Fatherland Front" (Vaterl?ndische Front) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotic_Front_%28Austria%29 . Kurt von Schuschnigg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Schuschnigg had been a leading figure in the Christian Social Party and in the "Fatherland Front". The badge is made of tombac with enamel and most likly from the 1920s: Best regards Christian

Dear Kevin, that's my old ?GB-badge: Best regards Christian

Come on Hardy, show your scientific "perspective" to us . Best regards Christian BTW: You have a nice Pickelhaube as an avatar .

Dear Kevin, many thanks for that great dictionary . Well, I think, it is not the job of the victim (YU) to justify an illegal act of aggression (NATO) The NATO had been in conflict with all international laws & UN-regulations (and also NATO-regulations!), when they started the conflict in Yugoslavia 1999. Tell me: What has the definition verb 2. bottom of the post to do with Yugoslavia in 1999 ? Yugoslavia hadn't been Nazi-Germany and the Serbs are no "SS-Butchers" . Best regards Christian

Gentlemen, such pictures with such "small" heroes had been the result of Nazi-Germany's aggression against the people of the Soviet Union. Most of them lost their parents and families. Best regards Christian