stephen

Rick, Apparently so. Nor does it seem that shrouds, kilts or cement provide the correct etymology for this phrase!

Don't think there was an implication that it was in fact a British saying! Equally, a quick scout around the web doesn't really confirm that the phrase has it's origins in American Football since I understand that 10 yards are required. "This phrase is of unknown origin and is the subject of some debate. At issue is to what does nine yards refer. The meaning is clearly the entirety or everything, but nine yards is not a significant measure of anything. All we know about its origin is that the phrase cannot be traced any earlier than the mid-1960s" and that it is American in origin. see http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorw.htm Perhaps there should be prize for the most plausible answer

I think so to, obviously no children in that relationship

The answer below was sourced at http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-whole-nine-yards.html the I have looked at a number of definitions and this is a good summation, capturing the general sense of all the articles I guess you have see what you like best. .To get a more plausible source we have to come forward to as recently as 1967. In 'The Doom Pussy (A narrative about the Vietnam War and the men who are fighting it)', by Elaine Shepard. A storyline in the book concerns a letter to a serviceman from a sweetheart, promising him comprehensive sexual favours when he gets back home. His response to this is: "God. The first thing in the early pearly morning and the last thing at night. Beds all over the gahdam house. The whole nine yards." It isn't clear if the author coined the phrase herself, although the manner of its use in the story would suggest not. Ms. Shepard died in September 1998, so unfortunately we can't ask her. Although the precise origin of any particular phrase may be difficult to determine, the date of its coinage usually isn't. Phrases that are accepted into common use appear in newspapers, court reports, novels etc. very soon after they are coined and continue to do so for as long as the phrase is in use. Anyone putting forward an explanation of an origin the whole nine yards dating from before the 1960s has to explain the lack of a printed record of it prior to 1967. If, to take the most commonly repeated version for instance, the phrase comes from the length of WWII machine gun belts, why is there no printed account of that in the thousands of books written about the war and the countless millions of newspaper editions published throughout the 1950s and 60s? The ideas that it pre-dates the war and goes back to the 19th century or even the Middle Ages are hardly plausible.

I suppose a natural successor to this thread are the innumerable words/saying in common usage that have their origin in the military and colonial experience. Obvious examples would be: Bungalow, (Hindi) Thug (Hindi) Khaki (India) Bint (Arabic) verandah (Hindi) Pundit (India) Shufty (Arabic) Dekko (Indian) Less obvious Dungaree (indian)

The book is called Port Out, Starboard Home: And Other Language Myths by Michael Quinion

To know the ropes. In the very early days, this phrase was written on a seaman's discharge to indicate that he was still a novice. All he knew about being a sailor was just the names and uses of the principal ropes (lines). Today, this same phrase means the opposite ? that the person fully knows and understands the operation (usually of the organization).

The earliest recorded use of posh to mean swank is from the 25 September 1918 issue of the British humor magazine Punch. In 1903, P.G. Wodehouse in Tales of St. Austin's used push to mean fashionable. Whether this was a printer's error or Wodehouse actually meant to use push is unknown (several later editors "corrected" this to read posh). In contrast, according to Merriam Webster the earliest claim to the acronymic origin dates to 17 October 1935 in the London Times Literary Supplement, where it is claimed to be of American origin. The earliest association with the P&O dates to two years later, almost twenty years after the word's usage was established. Sourced at http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorp.htm

Apparently, it isn't true at all a book, the name of which escapes me, dispels the Port Out Starboard Home as a myth. My original understanding was that it did in fact refer to the Indian voyage but focussed on those cabins which would be cooler on the outward and homeward trips.

Hi Just a quick addition, in between leaving University and joining the Army I had a number of jobs, one of which included working as a researcher at the Scottish Maritime Museum. The then director H Campbell McMurray, now a director of the Royal Naval Museum, told us his PHD thesis was entitled Sexuality in the Pre WWI British Navy, with a subtitle Buggary on the Dreadnought!

Hi, Another request for help I am very interested in the Garibaldi's defence of the Roman Republic in 1849. It has been an ongoing interest over the last few years. I have examined a number of sources in both Italian and English in respect of the defence of Rome. But find that there are still some significant anomalies in the information I have in my possession. I would like to ask the members if they have or know of any members have information on the specific Austrian Units involved,Neapolitan and Papal forces-particularly uniform details and most importantly of all the Spanish troops sent to quell the rebellion. They are mentioned in nearly every source but I have been unable to identify units, uniforms etc. I (think) that they didn't see any action but would dearly love any input on this subject. In fact any information at all would be most welcome

Danny, Good to know I shall look forward to it, I have enjoyed learning about these evenets cheers

Good to know, when will that be?

Hi, I was thinking of that but I was always apprehensive that I would be dragged away and found hanging under a bridge or eaten alive by the ?Masonic Goat? in Kilwinning-and there is one? On a more serious note the book turned up when my father sold our old house in the early 80?s, another curio which turned up was the London times from 1805 reporting the battle of Trafalgar, However I believe the book is of that sort of vintage, my fathers family were masons both in terms of their trouser habit and I terms of their vocation at least until the 1820?s when the family fortunes took a more professional turn. I think I have the book and will scan some images and post asap.

But we could well be rich for, in my case a five mark investment, whoopee

The full title was actually given in the first scan?

Glen, Wow, that is expensive and I guess that my copy with letter and cuttings etc. may possibly have even more value. Good link Glenn.

Danny, I have really enjoyed this post and would be keen to see the finished article, whilst I knew of the Fienian raids I had not heard of this, a quick scour of books also came up empty. It is fascinating the little bits (which weren?t so little at the time) of history that slip from our collective consciousness. As I say please let us know when your article is finished..

Hi, As an Ayrshire man I noted the inclusion of the Kilwinning lodge, As a curio I would like to add that Kilwinning though not an attractive town has a nice ruined abbey but for years the only post card available for the town was the an image of the inauspicious door of the ?Number nothing?. As a side issue I have an old Masonic hand book and I believe it to be really quite old is there any way of dating these things-I have always been to afraid to ask.

Tom, Out of curiosity, after your last mail, I had a quick look through Google and Abe books and didn?t turn up any thing at all with a combination of search options in English and German

Tom, Das 15 Infanterie Regiment im Feldzug 1870/71 is the title on the spine-happy hunting

Tom, My contribution is a history of the 15th during the Franco Prussian war and I would presume, as no named person is credited, it is the work of that regiment.

And last but not least

here is my attempt to make sense of the letter, it looks like the censor has been at it!

Here is the orginal letter