ayedeeyew

The last few days have seen me busy with the needle and thread, so plenty of updates to come... As a little taster, after the last of the buttons arrived, they were sorted by maker and condition, and then given a light wash. This allowed me to select the best buttons for the coat, with a few in reserve as spares: http://postimg.org/image/6q225i2zp/full/

Thanks for the compliments Mike, I'm glad to see I'm not just talking to myself and what I'm doing is of interest to others . I do continue to make the odd minor tweak when I can to improve things, the horrible modern replica duty-armlet in nylon I originally used on my jacket (and used to light up horribly under flash photography) is long gone for example, replaced for an original (the replicas just don't compare). Getting the 1897 jackets and greatcoat done will be relatively easy, it is the little things like trying to get the correct helmet plate numbers (or the letter H) that will be the real challenge! The broad strokes are simple, the devil is in the detail...

A new year, and time to get some updates done again. The local Victorian Evening has been and gone once again, so the Victorian kit got an airing. The local Police were interested to see it as usual, and made the local paper again: http://www.northsomersettimes.co.uk/news/portishead_victorian_evening_success_1_4350355 "Special Chief Inspector Scott Eggins with Andrew Upton dressed as a victorian police officer and raising money for Children's Hospice South West." http://postimg.org/image/56ddp4fyb/#codes I continue to work on the WW1 appropriate kit. The helmet plate I mentioned back in post 34 went away to a jeweller friend to be fixed, and came back a good few weeks later looking as follows: http://postimg.org/image/y1br1hdbl/full/ As can be seen, the detached lug is now firmly refixed, and the missing lug entirely replaced. I have added a number 1 from another damaged helmet plate I bought several years ago, but I still need another 1, a 7 and an H to correctly replicate my collar number, so if anyone knows of any damaged plates available for sale with these, or would be possibly willing to swap for them (as I have some spare numbers I don't require, a 6 or 9 and several 0's) please let me know. The numbers are the typical 13-14mm variety, the letter would need to be the usual somewhat smaller 10mm or so variety. This will ultimately be going on this helmet when the plate itself is completed: http://postimg.org/image/hl1rx4b5r/full/ This is an original two-panel cork helmet. Strictly speaking for the WW1 period and Met use it should be six-panel, but some forces were using these at the time and it is hard to find original early ones in both decent condition and a modern wearable size. As found this helmet needed some minor work, so I removed all the metal fittings and repainted them black. The original vent grommets were all missing, as was one of the rose-headed split pins that hold the band in place, so I replaced these with originals off a very damaged earlier helmet I purchased for spares. The chinstrap was reaffixed in place, and before I fitted all the freshly painted metal fittings back in place the shell was given a light sponging with soapy water to freshen it up, followed by a light vacuuming. I wish I had taken some before-pictures, because it really came up a treat! I now possess not one but two suitable jackets that would work for the 1897 pattern jacket adopted by the Met, but both require some minor conversion work before they will be deemed suitable by me. Something for someone whose tailoring skills are slightly more experienced than my own... Last but not least, as mentioned in another thread recently I have been working on trying to sort myself something that would provide a suitable base as a period greatcoat. Santa was good this year in that respect, so I am trying to put together enough original horn buttons on the 1911-34 pattern mentioned above (KC with Metropolitan Police within a gartered buckle, not the post-1934 KC type with Metropolitan Police now within a plain border). What I have so far is illustrated below, still waiting on four from Kelly Militaria, and currently bidding on some groups with odd ones in on Ebay. The coat requires 16 of the larger (about 25mm diameter) type - I'd really like to get as decent a matched set as possible, so if anyone knows of any other sources of multiple examples of these please let me know: http://postimg.org/image/oar59jxcr/full/ More to come in due course...

Oh dear, where to begin with the above... Given the OP was asking about tunics in the 1880's/90's, I was talking about tunics in the 1880's/90's. Not greatcoats in the 1970's. Since it apparently requires explaining, they are two quite different things. Your typical Police greatcoat of the post-WW2 period usually has buttons spaced 4 to 5 inches apart, therefore there is a reasonably large access point to get to the whistle, meaning it is indeed relatively easy for the whistle to come out of where it was stored. The same cannot be said for the tunic of the period under discussion. This would have been the 8-button tunic which the Metropolitan Police had adopted in 1864 (and most forces soon adopted) to replace the swallow-tail coat. Excepting the lowest two buttons being slightly wider (to facilitate the wearing of a belt) the button spacing on these is a bare 2-inches apart. After the adoption of whistles in 1883 (replacing rattles completely over 5 years in the Metropolitan Police) a small pocket between the third and fourth buttons was also provided to carry the whistle when not in use. This pocket whilst measuring only a couple of inches deep is accessed through an interior slit parallel to the buttons measuring about 2.5 inches wide. This doesn't seem particularly bad - until you realise this does not directly line up with the 2 inch gap of the buttons. With the tunic buttoned up in normal use this leaves you with a slit barely 1.5 inches wide through which to remove and replace the whistle. It is no easy task to remove it when you want it, and requires a degree of care - it certainly does not fall out of its own accord. "Anybody grabbing hold of the chain would have simply pulled the whistle out of the pocket" simply does not follow, and the risk of damage of a result is very real. I invariably find it safer easier to physically undo the fourth button if I wish to remove and replace the whistle when showing the kit. Also, "Essentially, the design of the coats had not materially changed (apart from an open neck at the collar) since Victorian times" is wrong on so many levels. I had myself been looking for a suitable coat to use with my late 19th/early 20th Police kit for over three years. Post-WW2 Police greatcoats are very common on Ebay in particular - and completely unsuited even for conversion due to the sheer number of differences. It was only recently I located something very suitable but still requiring some minor work, and that a piece of kit fossilised in Army dress use. To illustrate, here are a couple of pictures: Typical very late 19th century illustration: http://postimg.org/image/vrp409yy7/ London Police c.1903: http://postimg.org/image/f738ynppv/ Typical slightly later version (late 1900's/early 1910's): http://postimg.org/image/ijqmxi3bb/ Some typical WW2 or later Police greatcoats can be seen: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SERGEANTS-ESSEX-POLICE-GREAT-COAT-WARTIME-/252132217453?hash=item3ab440526d:g:cgcAAOSwo0JWJNpf http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GLOECESTERSHIRE-WW2-POLICE-TOP-GREAT-COAT-/121837920898?hash=item1c5e1b2282:g:nVcAAOSwHQ9Wasbu http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LEICESTER-POLICE-GREAT-COAT-/121772689713?hash=item1c5a37c931:g:zkQAAOSwVL1WCVfy The main change to a typical Police greatcoat over the turn of the century largely seems to be the fashion for wearing it cut with front increasingly wider at the top (most obvious in the buttons spreading further apart on the front from the bottom up). Most of the features of a typical WW2-onwards coat begin appearing in dribs and drabs from the 1920's/30's onwards. To sum up: - typical late 19th/early 20th century Police greatcoat. Short standing collar. No epaulettes. Number worn on collar. Usually 12 button front. Front not designed to be worn open in any way. No hip pockets. Belt hooks. Better quality melton wool material. Very dark blue-black colour. Highly figured cut. Highly decorative styling to back. - typical late 20th century/post-WW2 Police greatcoat. Large fold-over collar. Epaulettes. Number worn on epaulettes. Usually 10 button front or less. Front designed primarily to be worn with open lapels. Hip pockets. Usually no belt hooks. Usually rough serge material. Increasing use of lighter blue colour. Barely figured cut. Very functional/plain styling to back. Different in just about every key respect! Only yesterday morning on a WW1 related forum I also post on, someone wrote the following: "I wondered why the more I read the more confusing were the arguments, and for me it was the fact that frequently points were being reinforced by personal experience that obviously is well outside the 1914/1919 time frame. Now I don't want to take anything away from those who have served their country at any time or in any capacity and all due respect to them for their service. However when I am trying to get an understanding of what was happening in the Great War based on Kings Regulations etc, I don't think that knowing what someone's personal experience in 1956 or any other time expands the matter further, unless of course the regulations remained unchanged from the GW and somehow I doubt that. May I respectfully suggest that we try and remain within the known structures for the Great War, it will make it a lot easier for beginners like myself". Change all references from the military to the Police, and Great War to the late 19th century, and the point is just as valid here.

If you think about it logically, on routine Police work how many hand-holds do you want to afford to a potential assailant? One of the problems with the older-style 18 inch chains used on the whistle of the period was that (although looking great when polished up and lying flat down the front of a tunic) it presented something readily grabbed in the heat of the moment, risking damage to kit and injury to the officer. Just one reason to try and keep the uniform to the most practical minimum for ordinary use, and save the bling for best. As to Colour Sergeant Bourne (who I presume you meant , since that's his character in the still ), whilst Zulu is a great film, good history it is not necessarily. The uniforms in particular are inaccurate in many respects. One of my favourite bits of trivia is that Nigel Green was 40 when Zulu was made - he portrayed Bourne as a grizzled veteran, despite still being really only 24 at the time (having been promoted Colour Sergeant aged only 22, gaining the nickname "The Kid" as a result)! He relative youth meant he was the last survivor of the battle, not dying until 1945.

Thus answering the OP's question as I said - NOT routine. There are always exceptions to the rule, but that does not make them routine.

I stand by what I said - the question was whether ribbons were routinely worn in the period under discussion, not WW2 or later when the rules had become established, and the evidence says they were the exception not the rule at the time. Plus the only piece of Police Code specifically listed as not for official republication by any Police document was the opening address - not the main bulk of the book (including the medals section).

I'm going to say a slightly different answer in yes they clearly could and photos/pictures exist of such, but ribbons on uniforms for normal/routine duties in the late 19th century doesn't seem to have been the usual practice, and is much more an early 20th century onwards thing. It was much more common in the late 19th century to wear your actual medals for any sort of dressy occasion (which is why typical campaign/Jubilee medals of the period are often polished to death and/or dented through repeated contact wear). As the 20th century turned the practice increasingly changed, and medal tend to be reserved for more special occasions (and thus more point showing what medals you're actually entitled to with ribbons most of the time). From my own photographic references I could find virtually no images of ribbands being worn until about 1900-1905, when you suddenly get a proliferation of Boer War and similar campaign medal ribbons seen on Police officers, with the various 1902 and 1910 Coronation Medal, etc, ribbons. Prior to that (with the 1887 and 1897 medals in particular) it generally seems to be the medals themselves or nothing. Also, the 1912 Police Code under Medals states: "...3. Only medals authorised by the Sovereign should be worn, and, when worn, should be fastened on the left breast, the ribbon not exceeding one inch in length. 4. Medals authorised by a society for bravery in saving human life may, if authorised, be worn on the right breast. They should only be worn on dress uniform when directed on special occasions, but the ribbons of medals or decoration may be worn by police in other uniform on all occasions" (my emphasis). That's the earliest one I have and fits the evidence of the period, maybe another member has an earlier version to see if the wording is different to reflect the earlier period?

I wouldn't read too much into the additional holes. I believe these have been done by a collector in the recent past to change the plate to another division (of course, that might include the anchor), because the work has been somewhat crudely done. The 000 number on it certainly is not right. Either way, when I finally get it relugged and with H.171 on it shouldn't be visible to the casual observer at least, which is good enough for me! It's a shame in some respects, as the rest of the finish and general condition is absolutely cracking, but does mean I could essentially afford it, and still not be worried about tweeking it a little for my needs.

All of three years ago when I started this thread, I was after a correct WW1 pattern Met Police helmet plate for my WW1 kit. After a lot of Ebay failed bids and scouring dealers sites, for my birthday present this year I finally have one! http://postimg.org/image/llkt99r8r/ It needs a little work (one lug is missing, another was badly resoldered and has detached itself), but as I need to number it to match my collar number of H.171 anyway this makes me less worried about doing it. If anyone knows of any source for any of the correct sized numbers or letters (I need another 7 and 1, and a letter H) I would love to hear it.

A new item for the belt equipment - replica lamp backing piece: http://postimg.org/image/nznijhbbj/full/ Directly copied from an original in my collection that had gone too soft with age to use: http://postimg.org/image/s1194sy9h/full/ Period illustration of one in use: http://postimg.org/image/800eeqco3/

Looking for buttons to match the following if anyone has any leads. All are black plastic, main ones are 1-in diameter and I am ideally looking for 12+, the other is 1/2-in diameter (although I would accept anything 1/2-in to 3/4-in diameter) and I am looking for 2+ of these. I am converting a 1950's Civil Defense/ARP greatcoat to look more like a WW1 Police "Specials" greatcoat, and the buttons they used on the exterior are identical to those still being used on the interior of the coats 40 years later. http://postimg.org/image/v68m7z7ih/

The same seller also had a not terribly well listed group of horn buttons. As most appeared to be QC I wasn't terribly interested, but as they had been gradually reducing the price over the last couple of weeks I decided to take a chance on the lot when it got down to just £8.50 with P+P. Though not quite as good as the last lot, I'm still glad I did, as it contained: 1 small QVC gartered Metropolitan Police horn tunic buttons (pre-1902 pattern) 26 small KC gartered Metropolitan Police horn tunic buttons (1911-1934 pattern) 1 small KC bordered Metropolitan Police horn tunic button (1934-52 pattern) 9 large KC bordered Metropolitan Police horn tunic buttons (1934-1952 pattern) 11 large KC pie-crust horn tunic buttons (pre-1952 pattern) 42 large QC bordered Metropolitan Police horn tunic buttons (post-1952 pattern), chunky style 7 large QC bordered Metropolitan Police horn tunic buttons (post-1952 pattern), finer style 12 small QC bordered Metropolitan Police horn tunic buttons (post-1952 pattern) 12 small QC bordered Special Constuabulary horn tunic buttons (post-1952 pattern) 2 small QC pie-crust horn tunic buttons (pre-1952 pattern) Not a bad average at just over 6p a button... http://postimg.org/image/e3gmny9w3/full/

Edit - and armed with that service number, I got the following MIC: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2080916 Reference: WO 372/5/164347 Description: Medal card of Darbin, Edmund R Corps, Regiment, No, Rank: Royal Field Artillery 1473 Gunner, Royal Field Artillery 960622 Gunner Date: 1914-1920 Held by: The National Archives, Kew Legal status: Public Record

I would put money on this being the man as listed on the CWGC: http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/306086/DARBIN,%20EDWARD%20RICHARD Name: DARBIN, EDWARD RICHARD Rank: Gunner Service No: 960622 Date of Death: 15/08/1918 Age: 22 Regiment/Service: Royal Field Artillery, 104th Bde. Ammunition Col. Grave Reference: I. D. 19. Cemetery: HILLSIDE CEMETERY, LE QUESNEL Additional Information: Son of Harriet Darbin, of 147, Lower Mortlake Rd., Richmond, Surrey.

Indeed - some of the WW1 type should go on the original tunic I am working on restoring, some on a copy of the same, and the WW2 style should come in handy if I ever get an appropriate tunic in my size. Some of the rest I might look to trade or swap on eventually.

Thought I would give this a bump with the latest addition. I am currently working on replicating WW1 Metropolitan Police kit, and spotted this on Ebay very early Friday morning - a hoard of early 20th century Metropolitan buttons, discovered by the seller in the roof of his fathers house. Offered with Buy-It-Now totalling £30 with UK P+P included, or the Make-Me-An-Offer option was also put forward - needless to say I did not take the risk of trying to get them a little cheaper and bought them straight up! Paid for them straight away, posted by the seller Friday morning, and arrived Saturday morning. I thought there would be 20+ of the gartered KC type, and they eventually worked out as follows: 120 large KC gartered Metropolitan Police tunic buttons (1911-1934 pattern) 1 small KC gartered Metropolitan Police tunic button (1911-1934 pattern) 16 large KC bordered Metropolitan Police tunic buttons (1934-1952 pattern) 8 small KC bordered Metropolitan Police tunic buttons (1934-1952 pattern) 2 KC odds'n'sods (Prison use or similar) Needless to say I am extremely pleased, and set for life now for normal WW1 tunic buttons. And I only went looking online that night for one more to complete a set I had almost finished putting together... http://postimg.org/image/kirquzoul/full/

I have always understood, as regards the Met Police, that the number stamped on the whistle is purely the whistles serial number and nothing to do with the constable to whom it might be issued, although other forces did do that: http://www.whistleshop.co.uk/history.html The 244 address puts the date of manufacture firmly after 1909, the serial number itself from other examples would seem to put the age somewhere after 1914 into the 1920's (possibly the earlier part): http://www.whistleshop.co.uk/police.html Should you ever wish to part with it, it is exactly the right sort of period whistle I am ultimately looking to go with my WW1/1920's Met Police kit for living history I am still working on...

On the jacket front, I lodged an appeal with Customs within 48 hours of picking up the jacket several weeks ago. I decided to pay the VAT they had calculated and attempt to claim most of it back afterwards, rather than risk them sending it back to Canada in the meantime for the outstanding amount not being paid in the 21 days allowed which would have been a distinct possibility had I asked them to recalculate the amount due instead. Earlier in the year I had a package go missing, and it took about two months from start to finish for the Royal Mail to decide I was due the giddy heights of the £16 compensation I was claiming. I am lead to understand that compared to Customs this is speedy service, so I will not be holding my breath on it being a speedy resolution. On the badge front, I merely asked as the original cap I have came with its original white metal Hull Special Constabulary slidered badge attached. Most Met Specials badges seem to feature two loops and I really don't want to have to make any new holes in the cap if I can avoid it, I have one of the yellow-enamelled crown Sergeants badges with a single flat-holed tab which might fit in the current hole at a pinch, but if a true slidered version had existed it would make life much easier. On the stripes, I was aware some of the pictures were other forces other than the Met - "since period photos of them being worn as rank or otherwise in the Met or other forces seem to show different sorts at different times..." - I was just trying to illustrate some of the wondrous variety potentially available to trip me up

Won't seem to let me edit the post again now, so this is what I was in the process of saying: At least one advantage of me restoring it as a Specials jacket is the fact I already own a nice original peaked cap which I picked up for very little money on Ebay. Now does anyone know if a slidered version of the bronzed Met Specials badge exists...?

I have read the thread through several times, and the recurring problem I find is there almost universally seems to be a large jump in pictorial evidence of how things were done in the Met Specials between the early WW1 war period (usually just civvies with Duty Armlet, whistle, truncheon and lapel badge or cap badge) to the early post-war/WW2 period, with evidence from the late WW1 period where they were increasingly being uniformed much closer to Regular standards being almost non-existent which is very frustrating. The subject of stripes is also confusing to me, since period photos of them being worn as rank or otherwise in the Met or other forces seem to show different sorts at different times. The example below is a late 19th century photo, and appears to show the narrow braid sort: http://postimg.org/image/7mzrbuatf/ Later photos occasionally show very chunky white on dark backed stripes: Others such as: http://postimg.org/image/81jgueog3/ and: http://postimg.org/image/wjg5w1geb/ Called away will sort the gaps out in a bit.

I recently acquired the following Police jacket: http://postimg.org/image/553sfvwfh/ http://postimg.org/image/52op54ey3/ It's an original of the 5-button pattern adopted in 1897 by the Metropolitan Police (to replace the older 1864 pattern tunic for normal day and summer use, and itself replaced by the newer 7-button version in 1934). I have been after one for a while now, so I was very pleased to find this one for sale in Canada (although not so pleased to have been done by Customs who treated it as a modern piece of clothing and charged accordingly before I was able to get it!). It's been particularly useful to me in showing the details of its construction as I am working on getting some sort of copy done in my size for living history purposes, and it even has what appears to be a very well executed period modification to the left breast pocket so that it now has a large bag pocket on the interior accessed through a slit made under the pocket flap. It's had a hard life, and will require some restoration before I do anything more with it. But I now have something of a dilemma as to how I should rebadge it. It is ex-Warner Brothers Costume Department marked. The seller thought it was probably used originally by a WW1 Special Constable, as it has black gartered KC Met Police buttons up the front which are correct for the period, and generic black crown buttons to the pockets. However, now I have it in hand the Met buttons are clearly pot-metal copies (but very well made) painted black, and whilst the chest pocket buttons are originals the stitching says they are not original to the jacket. It displays clear evidence of having had a set of Long Service Good Conduct stripes very thoroughly and neatly applied to the lower left sleeve at some point. Immediately above this are two holes about 15mm and clear evidence of having had a badge mounted there for some considerable time. Either side of the collar are three pairs of vertical holes. There is no evidence the jacket ever had loops for a Duty Armlet on the lower left sleeve, but what looks to be wear from an armlet possibly being worn around the upper left sleeve instead. Apart from the buttons, which have certainly been changed in the past, I believe the jacket has otherwise NOT been messed about with by Warner Bros, and that the stitching marks, holes in the collar and sleeve, and chest pocket modification are as a result of its original Police service. I had originally planned to redo this as a Regular Met PC of the WW1 period. But to my mind the two holes in the sleeve would match the 1918 issue of the 1914 Special Constables star very nicely. The LSGC stripes would fit someone with a bit of time behind him as well. If this was originally a Specials jacket, how would it have been badged? Are there potentially any clues I missed. At the moment I'm thinking of using correct/original pressed horn gartered KC Met buttons, Met SC star on the left sleeve, and a set of stripes on the left sleeve. But what pattern would the stripes have been? Pictures of them in use seem rare. I'm thinking white tape on dark blue backing. And how would the collar have been badged? There's no evidence of a single "full-stop" hole, so it seems like either three numbers, or some other combination of badges or letters on their own. Help!

Just thought I'd give this one a bump again, was at the Wye Valley River Festival last month, helping take Brockweir back to Victorian times for the day (and turning a blind eye to various criminal activities!). A few pictures below, top is me with childrens entertainer "PC Crump", who I did not find out until the end of the day is actually Paul Goddard (creator of Bitsa and other notable childrens TV): http://postimg.org/image/ol3ysxf03/ Was also recently made aware of this site with lots of shots of the event, including plenty of myself: http://www.davidbroadbent.com/cgi-bin/ImageFolio42/imageFolio.cgi?direct=Events/Wye_Valley_River_Festival&img=852 This is a favourite, as it actually shows off the kit not visible from the front: http://www.davidbroadbent.com/cgi-bin/ImageFolio42/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Events/Wye_Valley_River_Festival&image=3K5C6157-2.jpg&img=864&tt=

Left to right, Coronation 1902 (Police), Coronation 1911 (Police), Queen's South Africa Medal.

Latest addition, rattle for pre-1887 kit: http://postimg.org/image/mylvq4mxd/ http://postimg.org/image/sohjhfx1r/