Unidentified Thai decoration

[Herr General]

This Dutch medalbar with Thai / Siam and Cambodian decorations was sold in the last FJP auction. Does anyone know what the name of the Thai decoration is? I can't find it in books, dealer and reference sites...

It is the third decoration from the left,

[JBFloyd]

I've been told it was a coronation medal from one of the Malay states, but info came after the catalog went to press and I still haven't had time to track it down.

[Herr General]

Thanks for your reply. I think it is Thai because of the "crown" like object over the medal.This is seen on almost al Thai decorations.

I hope you don't mind me using this image, if so, please send me a message!

Edited September 20, 2006 by Herr General

[JBFloyd]

It's not a Thai "pagoda" crown, which is much taller and pointed (plus it has pieces that extend down over the ears).

In a Dutch group, I would expect it to be from a Malay or Indonesian state.

In any case, it's a very unusual group, in my experience.

Feel free to use the image.

[Herr General]

I have just added this Dutch photo to my collections. It seems to be showing the same award!

Anyone ?

[Hugh]

I have just added this Dutch photo to my collections. It seems to be showing the same award!

Anyone ?

I'm sure it's not Thai, and fairly sure it's not one of the Malay states (the crown is unlike any of my Malay / Malaysian medals). At a guess, I'd venture the Sultan of Solo (Suryakarta), which is consistent with the Dutch "primary" medals. Any Indonesian heraldists out there?

Hugh

[Hugh]

Can you post a closeup of the medal itself (obverse / reverse)? We may be able to make out something from the inscription(s).

[Herr General]

Hi Hugh, Thanks for your reaction. I do not own the medal. I own a photo of a man wearing this medal.

[Hugh]

Hi Hugh, Thanks for your reaction. I do not own the medal. I own a photo of a man wearing this medal.

Got it! Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[ErikMuller]

Got it! Sorry for the misunderstanding.

It its the award often refered to as the "Gele Ster" of "Gele Soeng". I don't know what its for, but it is indeed from one of the Sultanates.

[ErikMuller]

It its the award often refered to as the "Gele Ster" of "Gele Soeng". I don't know what its for, but it is indeed from one of the Sultanates.

By the way Roel,

I would really love a scan of the whole photo!

Cheers,

Erik

[Herr General]

Thank for the name of the decoration.

Here is a scan:

[ErikMuller]

Sweet!

Do you have a name for this KNIL Colonel?

Or a date for the picture?

Edited November 20, 2006 by ErikMuller

[ErikMuller]

I found another KNIL-officer wearin this decoration. This is a picture of Lieutenant-General H.A. Cramer, commander-in-chief of the Royal Netherlands-Indies Army (KNIL). The decorations are:

Commander in the Order of Orange-Nassau with swords (neckdecoration)

Knight in the Order of the Lion of the Netherlands

Cross for Important War Actions with clasp

Officer's Long Service Cross

Mobilisation Cross 1914-1918

Unknown decoration

Commemorative Medal for the 64th Birthday of H.R.H. Soesoehoenan Pakoe Boewono Senopati Ingalogo Abdoerrachman Sajidin Panoto Gomo X, Soesoehoenan of Surakarta-Hadinigrat (1929).

[Herr General]

Nice photo! Is this from the rememberance book of the mobilisation cross 1914-1918?

There most be a way to find out what kind of medal this is. I have tried to find more info about the decorations of Luitenant Generaal Cramer. Without succes!

[ErikMuller]

Nice photo! Is this from the rememberance book of the mobilisation cross 1914-1918?

There most be a way to find out what kind of medal this is. I have tried to find more info about the decorations of Luitenant Generaal Cramer. Without succes!

Yups, its from the 1939 book. I must have an original photo of him wearing his medals on a banket somewhere, but I think its with my notes about the unknown decorations: displaced somewhere in my archives :-S

[Herr General]

I was told that the script on the medal appears to be from the island of Java.

[Hugh]

I was told that the script on the medal appears to be from the island of Java..

You may already be aware that the Arabic-style script used for the Indonesian and Malay languages is called Jawi, which may have been the reference you heard. Jawi is not widely used except for very formal or official purposes. It is used for these purposes in both Indonesia and Malaysia. I'm still betting on the Sultan of Solo (Suryakarta).

[Herr General]

Thanks for that info Hugh. I have mailed the Dutch Army Museum and the Bronbeek museum for help.

[Herr General]

Hello Eric,

Here is some info from the Museum Bronbeek about the Gele Soeng ( in Dutch )

Het zou wel eens zo kunnen zijn dat met de gele soeng het zonnescherm of de pajoeng bedoeld wordt. Deze pajoeng heeft immers de vorm van een paddestoel (soeng) en is bovendien vaak geel van kleur. En het Hoog-Javaaanse woord voor dit zonnescherm "songsong" (de Javaanse o-klank is in het Maleis vaak een oe en het songsong is een gebruikelijke verdubbeling) is gemakkelijk tot soeng te herleiden.

De pajoeng was het voornaamste onderscheidingsteken voor inlandse ambtenaren. Door de daarop in het veld aangebrachte kleuren en strepen of circels werd de rang van de ambtenaar aangeduid. Elke pajoeng heeft een veld (latar), met een knop, pentol, waaraan een stervormig uitgeknipt aanhangsel met puntige uitlopers (tlatjak) zit. De beide laatste onderdelen zijn in de regel verguld. De stok (garan) is bij de pajoengs der regenten verguld, bij die van de andere ambtenaren wit of zwart geverfd met of zonder versierselen in de vorm van bloemslingers, terwijl de dunne stokjes die het scherm open moeten houden, mneestal geel of wit geverfd zijn en door een netwerk van geel of wit garen zijn omgeven.

Voor 1904 voerden ook de residenten en assisitent-residenten op Java en Madoera de ambtspajoeng: voor de residenten een vergulden en een halfvergulden/halfwitte voor de assistent-residenten. Gouverneur-Generaal Van Heutsz schafte dit gebruik in de zogeheten "pajoengcirculaire" van 1904 af.

[Hugh]

Hello Eric,

Here is some info from the Museum Bronbeek about the Gele Soeng ( in Dutch )

Het zou wel eens zo kunnen zijn dat met de gele soeng het zonnescherm of de pajoeng bedoeld wordt. Deze pajoeng heeft immers de vorm van een paddestoel (soeng) en is bovendien vaak geel van kleur. En het Hoog-Javaaanse woord voor dit zonnescherm "songsong" (de Javaanse o-klank is in het Maleis vaak een oe en het songsong is een gebruikelijke verdubbeling) is gemakkelijk tot soeng te herleiden.

De pajoeng was het voornaamste onderscheidingsteken voor inlandse ambtenaren. Door de daarop in het veld aangebrachte kleuren en strepen of circels werd de rang van de ambtenaar aangeduid. Elke pajoeng heeft een veld (latar), met een knop, pentol, waaraan een stervormig uitgeknipt aanhangsel met puntige uitlopers (tlatjak) zit. De beide laatste onderdelen zijn in de regel verguld. De stok (garan) is bij de pajoengs der regenten verguld, bij die van de andere ambtenaren wit of zwart geverfd met of zonder versierselen in de vorm van bloemslingers, terwijl de dunne stokjes die het scherm open moeten houden, mneestal geel of wit geverfd zijn en door een netwerk van geel of wit garen zijn omgeven.

Voor 1904 voerden ook de residenten en assisitent-residenten op Java en Madoera de ambtspajoeng: voor de residenten een vergulden en een halfvergulden/halfwitte voor de assistent-residenten. Gouverneur-Generaal Van Heutsz schafte dit gebruik in de zogeheten "pajoengcirculaire" van 1904 af.

[Hugh]

Yes, well, that clears everything up then! (But not for me - any chance of a translation?)

[ErikMuller]

Hey, sarcasm... at least that I understand

Rough translation, probably filled with misspellings:

It is possible that the object refered to as "Yellow Soeng" could be the sunscreen or "pajoeng". This pajoeng has the shape of a mushroom (in the native language "Soeng") and is often yellow in colour. In High Javanese this word is often pronounced as "songsong", which correctly pronounced could also be heard as as "soeng".

The pajoeng was the most seen mark for native civil servants. On the field of the pajoeng their rank was displayed by colours, stripes and knobs. Each pajoeng has a field ("latar"), on which is a knob with a starshaped item with pointy points (?) Both items are gilded. The stick on which the sun screen is placed was gold for the regents and black or white for the lower servants.

These pajoengs were abolished in 1904.

Since I thought the Yellow Soeng was a medal, Herr General cited this information to point me I was wrong (*wow*)

[Herr General]

I just posted this as aditional information, not to say that someone is wrong or right. Sorry Hugh for note posting a translation. I felt that my english wasn't good enough to translate this piece!

[ErikMuller]

I just posted this as aditional information, not to say that someone is wrong or right. Sorry Hugh for note posting a translation. I felt that my english wasn't good enough to translate this piece!

OK, maybe wrong was the wrong word: misstaken is better! It clears up that what I thought to be a decoration actually was an umbrella