Chris Boonzaier Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 I have just bought a small doc group.1) Milit?r Ehrenzeichen 2. Klasse2) S?dwestafrika-Denkm?nze (Bronze)3) Kolonialkrieger-Bund in Silver.The guy was in the 5th Batterie (Arty) and served from March 04- Oktaber 05, the period in where the Hereros were massacered.a couple of questions....1) What % of men got the Ehrenzeichen 2. Klasse.2) I guess there are no rolls for the clasps :-(3) What would an "OK" price be, what would a "Great" price be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 2) you got that right!3) I don't think I have seen TEN colonial award document groups in 40 years, the Sibentritt auction aside. Take that from there. 1) This is tough. Of course, there is no "Rank List" for enlisted men. While the MEZ2 is the "most common" colonial award, in 30 years of rabid collecting, I've never had one. Here are the late Eric Ludvigsen's annual figures from studying every single award from the annual Prussian Orders Lists:1900 = 3091901 = 5911902 = 15Now a few of those may be odds and ends for Africa, but that is basically what was given out for the Boxer Rebellion's suppression in China 1900-01:915 total (combatant ribbon/noncombatant ribbon was not distinguished before 1905) for approximately 20,000 enlisted men from all over the Reich, not quite 1:201903 = 451904 = 515/01905 = 1,150/21906 = 1,493/51907 = 1,719/54Covering the huge surge for Southwest Africa. That campaign seems to have had significantly degraded standards particularly compared to China, on what would be a WW1 EK2 scale. I am not sure exactly how many men served in SW Africa total to do a proportional percentage of the 4,877/61 awards made.from 1908 to 1912 only 622 more MEZ2s were awarded. From 1864 through 1912, the last year for which figures were published, 16,157 were awarded on the "black white" ribbon and ...64 on the "white black" ribbon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 Well, I am pleased as hell... the whole lot cost me EUR330.I am wondering and wondering if I should pay USD99 for his simple one page F?hrungszeugnis and USD99 for a payslip of his. I always go the extra mile to reunite groups... but that seems to be an extra 5 miles....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 That's crackers. Tell the seller (after you get the other stuff) that your heirs will be in touch with his unborn grandchildren on the overpriced scraps worth NOTHING outside the group.BTW, in what year did your man actually get his MEZ? Most of the very few documents I have seen have been dated 1907. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 Hi,November 1904, halway through his tour.from what i can find, the 5th Batterie was involved in a rather bloody skirmish in august 1904, It and 3 feldkompanies were surrounded by herrero and had to really deliver a fight to survive, The fieldarty used all its ammo and lost quite a few men.I assume it was more or less an "Immediate" award for this action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 Hi Service falls into a perios that is not exactly a shining star period of german culture....Exactly at this time...Von Trotha issues a proclamation threatening the Ovaherero with total extinction: "The Herero are no longer German subjects. They have murdered and plundered. ... Now, out of cowardice, they want to give up the fight. ... The Herero nation must leave the country. If it will not do so I shall compel it by force. Inside German territory every Herero tribesman, armed or unarmed, with or without cattle, will be shot. No women and children will be allowed in the territory: they will be driven back to their people or fired on. These are the last words to the Herero nation from me, the great General of the mighty German Emperor."Von Trotha?s proclamation is in effect the mere legal sanctioning of that which, as the numerous diaries of the German Schutztruppen soldiers show, has already been commonplace since January 1904. Some diary entries may serve as examples: Captain Victor Franke writes at Otjihinamaparero on 27.02.: "A wounded man with a terribly damaged leg is brought in . ... He is questioned and then shot, Von Arnim executes him properly. He is shot from the back without noticing what is happening to the unfortunate man." Lieutenant HFR Knoke writes on 08.07.1904: "Of the five captured Herero four have been hung. The 5th is used for labour purposes"; 09.07.: "Our prisoner has a noose around his neck which is then attached to the saddle of a horse. The particular Witbooi ensures that things do not become too comfortable for him"; 16.08.: "A captured Herero female was, ... , set free. However, the bitterness of the people is great. The female had barely left the encampment when two shots were fired. A sign that this one had also left its life."; 07.10: "As last night we had noticed a number of fires in our vicinity, we looked for tracks this morning, ... We junior officers galloped ahead, our men followed on foot. We took the werft [settlement], shot down part of the inhabitants, the remainder we took along as prisoners". In the diaries of Emil Malzahn, who accompanies Von Trotha on one of his pursuits, it is noted that prisoners taken on 26.09. at the waterhole of Owisombo-Owidimbo, are summarily executed: "Newly caught Herero prisoners-of-war were hung by the neck. Since that day, I would often see Herero swaying from the branch of a tree".Von Trotha?s genocide and chain orders, however, are later mitigated by the German Government. During a field service at Osombo-Windimbe Von Trotha announces that the war against the Ovaherero would be continued without mercy. He claims that " ... Since I neither can nor will come to terms with these people without express orders from His Majesty the Emperor and King, it is essential that all sections of the nation be subjected to rather stern treatment. I have begun to administer such treatment on my own initiative and, barring orders to the contrary, will continue to do so as long I am in command here. My intimate knowledge of so many Central African tribes - Bantu and others - has made it abundantly plain to me that Negroes will yield only to brute force, while negotiations are quite pointless. Before my departure yesterday I ordered the warriors captured recently to be court-martialled and hanged and all women and children who sought shelter here to be driven back into the sandveld ... ".At dawn the following morning, Ovaherero prisoners-of-war who had been sentenced to death by a field court martial are hung in the presence of about 30 Ovaherero prisoners-of-war, women and children amongst them. After the hanging, Von Trotha?s proclamation is read out to the prisoners in Otjiherero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeikoGrusdat Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 very good price!!! The MEZ2 docs are much more rare than the DSWA-Denkm?nze docs.... I had a lot of good colonial document groups but all are sold now to a friend as I turned more to the medal bars... you can`t collect everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gregory Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Congratulations on an excellent addition to an already impressive collection.I have been looking for a group like this, or even a single MEZ2 document, for a long time. I hope you manage to reunite the entire group.Any chance of scans?Cheers,David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted September 29, 2006 Author Share Posted September 29, 2006 Hi,The docs are still in the maill.... then i have to wait till my computer is back from the shop (thank god for this old laptop!!) to get scans done.Looking back at the seller, he still has 2 pay slips (USD49 each) and a F?rungszeugnis (USD99) objective value maybe USD20 for all..... I am not sure if I will bite.The MEZ2 and GSWA medal were USD99 each, the Bund one USD225. The seller was a stamp dealer in the US who had these listed in the stamp section.Historically and Gruesomely interesting is he arrived just in time to take part in the Herero genocide, I am hoping to get some good books on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eitze Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Hello,if they are not known to you, you should try to get the books of Walter Nuhn (Bernard & Gaefe Verlag). He has written about the German Colonial Warfare.The titles are:- Sturm ?ber S?dwest, 1997 (Hereo-Aufstand, 1904)- Feind ?berall-Guerillakrieg in S?dwest, 2000 (Nama-Aufstand, 1904-08)- Flammen ?ber Deutsch-Ostafrika, 1998 (Maji-Maji Aufstand, 1905/06)- Kolonialpolitik und Marine, 2002 (Die Rolle der Marine bei der Gr?ndung und Sicherung des deutschen Kolonialreiches 1884-1914)These books are really helpful for the collector of German Colonial Decorations greetingseitze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted September 29, 2006 Author Share Posted September 29, 2006 Hi Eitze,have ordered one, I look forward to reading it.BestChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted October 6, 2006 Author Share Posted October 6, 2006 Sturm ?ber S?dwest, 1997 (Hereo-Aufstand, 1904)- Feind ?berall-Guerillakrieg in S?dwest, 2000 (Nama-Aufstand, 1904-08)Well, I got these two.... GREAT investment indeed !!!!!!!A question to the bars on these medals....As the campaign medal was awarded without bars.... when did they start to give out the bars?BestChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eitze Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 Hello Chris,with decree of 19.03.1907 Kasier Wilhelm II. endowed the SWA-Denkm?nze and 11 bars.These were:- Herero-Land- Onganjira- Waterberg- Omaheke- Gross-Namaland- Karas-Berge- Gross-Nabas- Auob- Nurudas- Nossob- OranjeWith a new decree of 11.11.1908 Kasier Wilhelm II. added 3 new bars and changed "Nurudas" into "Narudas":- Omararuru- Fahlgras- ToasisLast bars (Kalahari 1908) was added on 05.08.1912.The first 11 bars were created together with the medal. So I think you should get both awards - the medal and the fitting bar(s), at the same time ???greetingseitze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted October 14, 2006 Author Share Posted October 14, 2006 This is very much worth a look at... An article about the medalhttp://rapidttp.com/milhist/vol013ts.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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