Order of Al-Nadah

[MattGibbs]

Can someone detail the size and colour of the minature, or ribbon bar ribbon for this award, and whether it is obtainable? I have a small pic of it but not sure if it is "standard" brit type medal ribbon width or not. As presented by King Feisal to a number of Brit. troops and commonwealth after WW1, thought I would post it here, sorry if it is in wrong place but thought it would be buried in "world" section.

Regards

Matt Gibbs

[Ed_Haynes]

Suspect the Najdi miniature was never made (maybe by enterprising London jewelers), though the Jordanian continuation is fairly common Iand not too different). Doubt any recipients still live to need miniatures though? Why would you need one? Surely NOT to fake a miniature group?!

Ribbon the same as the later Jordanian award (subsumed to that, though likely rarely worn). There have been some good (and some not-so-good) articles in the OMRS journal on this award to Brits.

[Jacky]

Hummm I'm getting interested in this medal...

Could anyone show an example of this medal???

Kind regards,

Jacky

[Khyber]

Hummm I'm getting interested in this medal...

Could anyone show an example of this medal???

Kind regards,

Jacky

Here is an example in a group to LtCol. Crankshaw.

[Ed_Haynes]

Yes, lower right. But the JORDANIAN not HEJAZI variety, and on the wrong wribbon too.

See: http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.ph...big&cat=616

Edited October 13, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Jacky]

WOnderfull group however...

aren't that quite high awards for a lt Col???

KCMG & MBE??

Kind regards,

Jacky

[Khyber]

I am sorry it was not what you were looking for but it is the best I can do. Here are the details.

CRANKSHAW, Eric Norman Spencer; Group to Sir Eric Norman Spencer Crankshaw, Lt Col Royal Fusiliers. KCMG in case by Garrard, MBE 1st issue military, 1914-15 star trio with MID, Defence and 39/45 War Medal, Order of El Rafidan 3rd Class, Order of the Star of Ethiopia 3rd Class, Transjordan Order of El Nahda 3rd Class. Entitled to CMG (1934), KCMG (1939), MID twice in WW1, Order of El Rafidan 3rd cl Commander (Iraq) 1933, Order of the Brilliant Star of Zanzibar 4th cl 1929, Order of the Star of Ethiopia 3rd Cl Commander 1932, Order of El Nahda 3rd Cl (Transjordan) 1934.

MBE 1919. Secretary Government Hospitality Fund, 1929-49 and Office Commandant New Public Offices 1940-49. B. 1 July 1885 Dunlewy, Gweedore, Co. Donegal. Educated Eton. Royal Fusiliers, 1905-21; Served European War, 1915-18 where he was wounded and mentioned in dispatches twice Lond Gaz 22 June 15 and 11Dec. 17; Served in 3rd Bn. RF

attached Army Signal Service, 1915-16. Camp Commandant (DAAG) 4th Army Corps, 1916-17; Camp Commandant (DAAG) Supreme War Council, Versailles, 1917-18; DAAG&QMG Peace Conference, Paris, 1918-20; Assistant Private Secretary to Secretary of State for War, 1920-21; Reserve of Officers, 1921-1936; Re-employed, GSO (1) MI War Office, 1939-40. Lt. Col War Cabinet Offices 1940-48; Died 24 June 1966

[peter monahan]

Order of El Rafidan 3rd Class,

Order of the Star of Ethiopia 3rd Class,

Transjordan Order of El Nahda 3rd Class. Entitled to CMG (1934), KCMG (1939),

Order of El Rafidan 3rd cl Commander (Iraq) 1933,

Order of the Brilliant Star of Zanzibar 4th cl 1929,

Order of the Star of Ethiopia 3rd Cl Commander 1932,

Camp Commandant (DAAG) Supreme War Council, Versailles, 1917-18;

DAAG&QMG Peace Conference, Paris, 1918-20;

Fascinating CV ! What do you suppose he did (at Versaille, as a "base wallah" ?) to impress the Ethiopians, Iraqis, Zanzibarians AND the Jordanians? Something secret and important for the Adjutant General's dept. - espionage, liason and diplomacy - or merely getting in the right kind of rations for some distinguished peace delegations?

I'm guessing that the MBE and KCMG make the former more likely than the latter.

This is the kind of group that often have really neat stories behind them!

Edited October 14, 2006 by peter monahan

[MattGibbs]

Suspect the Najdi miniature was never made (maybe by enterprising London jewelers), though the Jordanian continuation is fairly common Iand not too different). Doubt any recipients still live to need miniatures though? Why would you need one? Surely NOT to fake a miniature group?!

Ribbon the same as the later Jordanian award (subsumed to that, though likely rarely worn). There have been some good (and some not-so-good) articles in the OMRS journal on this award to Brits.

Ed,

Faking a mini group?

Paranoid about old minis are we?

Bit of an assumption there methinks?

Miniatures made, like the originals, by the London jewellers who also made the full size jobbies I believe. I am advised by a collector some of these were made in Paris and some in London.

1st type ribbon is not available any longer but thanks for the photo of the cased award, and thanks off the board to an interested collector I may well be able to get a [very] small piece of the original ribbon.

Apart from being a collector I have another hobby which is re-enacting. Since a display I am making includes an RFC chap who won this award then I want to make a ribbon bar for his uniform, thus the need for the ribbon or a source. Not that I feel the need to explain myself, just gentlemanly mentioning why someone might legitametly want to ask for a bit of old ribbon without being a crackpot money grabbing faker working in a dingy basement to make money out of collectors [ and who is going to take an original one of these out to a show in the middle of a field and then find it nicked? ]

Glad there some interest, I may even put on the forum some Biogs of the brits who won this award from Feisal in 1920.

Regards

Matt Gibbs

[Ed_Haynes]

Actually, miniatures and miniature groups are faked fairly commonly. Being unnamed, they are easy to fake, just like ribbon groups. The faking is made all the easier by jewelers and manufacturers who churn out miniatures of long-obsolete awards and awards that were never worn in miniature for the "collector market". Am I paranoid, Matt, hardly, just rational and observant of what is on offer.

I was digging for images of the award, but as the interest here is more that of "reenactment" than of phaleristics, I guess there's no need to bother. If I find anything, I'll start a new thread over in "international", rather than here as if the award were "British".

The order and its British recipients has been pretty well researched in the OMRS journal, and people may want to dig out their back issues of this for more information. The only problem with what has been published there is a lack of distinct treatment of the order as, first, a Hejazi and, later, Transjordanian/Jordanian award and, as usual, a narrow tendancy to see it as existing only in so far as it was awarded to Brits.

[MattGibbs]

Thanks for that Ed. Now I appreciate your position Sorry to hear there is so much faking in brit/allied miniature groups etc. Shame isn't it..?

I am not in the OMRS here in the Uk, so I have no idea about previous published details of recipients, but at least that saves me typing away on here for no reason!! I am amazed why anyone would want to fake a ribbon group, I thought it was the dangly medals that were really worth anything! Surely only the top end of the gallantry field would be worth it? I suppose its difficult to know. Personally I have known a few vets who in the 60s or 70s or 80s had their medal bars "reconditioned" with new ribbon for Remembrance parades so they did not look tatty. I am sure they didn't think anything of it other than making it look smarter. Is an original group with old ribbon, say a DFC and 3 stars etc is worth substantially more than one with replacements from later years. I would indeed be interested to know. Apart from 2 or 3 all my Boer War medals had ribbon replaced probably by dealers themselves!

I don't know any avenues to research the native recipients of this award in the Hedjaz kingdom so I cannot tell you anything to help from that angle. Perhaps its because more people are interested in the awards of their own country and its own fighting forces, I don't know?

I am suprised that there would be so much narrow mindedness seeing it in the light of only the Brits who recieved it. Since its obviously classed as a "foreign" award to british recipients, who had to specially apply for permission to accept it and wear it there would be far many non-brits who recieved it!

It is illustrated in a 1944 publication I just bought and so I know the colour of the original type ribbon now, but obviously no one produces it!

Its been interesting to learn more on this as I have been reading around. Just because I am looking at this partucular one from the standpoint of a re-enacting display doesn't mean I am not interested in the award, grades, other recipients, makers and other things.

Regards

MattGibbs

[MattGibbs]

Hello folks

Also interested to know if this award is worth less if named/provenance to natives than to allied servicemen/officers. This seems usually to be the case with other medals like the IGS.

regards

MG

[Ed_Haynes]

Hello folks

Also interested to know if this award is worth less if named/provenance to natives than to allied servicemen/officers. This seems usually to be the case with other medals like the IGS.

regards

MG

I'm not quite sure what you are asking.

The order is not named at all, whether awarded to natives (of the British Isles) or to Najdis or Jordanians.

The distinction between the Nadji and Jordanian awards is important to maintain, as they had different designs, were awarded by different states, in were (and are) given out under very different historical circumstances.

Most Najdi al-Nahda badges that have come to the market have been awards attributed to Brits. That says more about the market than about patterns of award or "market value". I know of only a few awards attributed to Arabs in collections. For those who collect Arab awards, these are (obviously) much more preferrered over awards to foreigners, which were pretty freely given out.

I think the issue here has more to do with how the market works and what has been seen up for sale than as a similar reflection to the often-blatant racism that has, until recently, actively influenced prices on South Asian medals.

I have never gotten into the price estimation game and do not plan to start now. Checking auction prices at a reputable place like Dix, Noonan, Webb might give you a sense, though most Nejdi awards I recall were in groups?

I am still seeking a nice image that I know I have/had somewhere (others know that feeling?) and shall, if there is any interest, put up a long post over in the international section (as this was not a British award).

[MattGibbs]

Thanks Ed. I am not after any kind of valuation, I do not see myself targetting this award in the future. My interest was solely in the perceved difference and I wanted to ask your opinion but it is not important! I take your point about rascist attitudes and indeed I believe this is a big part of the medal collector snobbery some of my friends seem to have! Sad but true.

I meant of course attributable, not named. Thats the curse of using the net after work like I usually have to, like now at 2am after a 10 hr shift

I shall be checking with a friend who has some of the DNW catalogues and sales figures, just in case there are any from recent years.

I also appreciate the importance of seperating the Jordanian awards, which personally do not interest me. I have found it hard to get any information from friends interested in this hobby becuse they collect british units or ranks etc and are not interested in medals or awards given by "foreign" nations. Mostly I think they believe I am wasting my time - I think they are missing a lot and they are more interested in value and not actual study or interest.

Feel free to get this moved to the appropriate section if it is annoying people by my misplacing it in the wrong category, clearly I did not really know which section to start placing my questions.

To make it clear my intent is to ask about the Hedjaz awards relating to the period immediately after WW1 that were instituted by Feisal.

I have now kindly recieved a piece of the original 1920s ribbon which I was very glad to recieve,

best wishes

Matt Gibbs

[MattGibbs]

Apologies for confusing anyone with my unintentional mis spellign of the honor, which is the Order of El-Nahda, Hedjaz.

The correct ribbon I was looking for is a 1+7/16th " ribbon [sorry my desk rule is not decimalised] divided into 3 equal bands of colour, from left, Black, green and white, the central green band divided in the centre by a red line. This is the colour of the ribbon for the awards relating to the Hedjaz Arabian order, as instituted by Emir Feisal in 1919 to commemorate the revival of the Arab kingdom.

Regards

Matt Gibbs