Soviet Civil Orders to Red Army Soldiers

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

if a soldier of the GPW received a civil order - i.e.: Lenin, Red Banner of Labour (RBL), Order of the Badge of Honour, etc. - are they still unresearchable?

Or - are the open for research, because they are listed in the military archieves?

Anybody, who fought in the lines of the Red Army should have left traces in the Soviet Military Archives - also with their civil awards, if they are listed?

So there might be the possibility to research (up to a certain extend) civil orders and medals, if they were confered before or during the military career of the recipient .

In my modest collection I have an obvious reissue RBL T 3 / Var. 1 with the s/n. 6.825 - similar to Igor's http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=13728 , but in better condition. It should be a reissue of a screwback RBL T 2 / Var. 1 or Var. 2 (in my collection is a RBL T 2 / Var. 1 with the s/n. 8.660). There might be the probability, that the RBL T 3 / Var. 1 is a "Victory-Parade" reissue .

My question: Would it make sense, that I invest money into the research of my reissue RBL s/n. 6.825?

Gentlemen, many thanks for your expertise in advance .

Best regards

Christian Zulus

[NavyFCO]

Christian:

The answer is yes, no, and maybe.

Seriously, with all the groups I've researched, I can say that a military officer (I've never seen an enlisted or NCO with a labor award given while in the military) who received his labor award while in the military WILL have a citation or at least an annotation in their record about that award.

The most common award I have found for this is the early BoH, which was awarded quite frequently up to about 1943 (or so.) I have owned three groups with that award, that has been researchable and there has been an actual citation for it in the archives.

For awards after the GPW, I have not seen a labor award given out to an officer where the citation was in the file. In other words, I have seen many written citations for labor awards, but almost always these labor awards were "upgraded" to their military equivelant, and thus their citation was kept on file in the Archives.

I have researched post-GPW groups to officers who had remained on active duty when they received labor awards that had labor awards that had no citation, but the award was listed on the award card. I assume that these are the labor awards that were NOT "upgraded" to their military equivelent, and thus the citations were not kept on these awards.

I have researched numerous groups with post-GPW labor awards that were given after the person had left the military, and these labor awards are not normally listed on their award card. I have seen one exception to this, and that was where the officer had left the service, but in 1959 was awarded a "catch up" military award and had earned a labor award before 1959. He then had his labor award annotated on his award card, even though it was not given through the military.

[Ed_Haynes]

An interesting thread and an interesting topic. Maybe larger than we realise?

A stupid (novice) question: How much of out glib division of "military" vs. "civil" awards is, in fact, just fixating on a late GPW pattern? Obviously, things like Lenin, Red Star, and even GPW could, for a while, be awarded, freely and seamlessly, to comrades in uniform and those in labor (reflecting the unity of soldiers and workers and all that). Maybe the division that we (in the West) like (so much, too much?) to make didn't come along until late in (or after?) the GPW? Obviously, the Red Banner was the exception, but it had two divisions to reflect this double nature, military and labor, and it always had, from the beginning of the new Soviet honors system. Only with the creation of the HSL was there an implicit division even within the "hero" stratosphere.

Am I just indulging in a late-Sunday afternoon fantasy or . . . ???

[NavyFCO]

I'm sorry I posted my post before it was complete, as our building had to be evacuated because of a fire alarm....

So in summary:

If an officer was awarded a labor award while in the military, the citation should be available.

However: If an officer received a labor award that might not have had a citation anyway (e.g. October Revolution, FoN, etc.) those are normally not available.

If an officer was nominated for a labor award while in the military, but received a military award instead, the citation should be available.

If an officer (or enlisted) was awarded a labor award after they left the military, these were normally not recorded.

The only way that I have been able to research labor awards to military officers was because it was part of their file. I do not know if the Archives are able to determine the recipient of a labor award based on the number. I honestly doubt that they can, as those awards normally did not travel the same route as their military counterparts.

So as far as the RBL that you have, I would say that the chances of being able to research it through the military archives are extremely slim, if not impossible. Chances are it was one that was either a replacement for a lost award, the person was "purged" and later rehabilitated, or the recipient had some need to trade it in for a hanging award at some point in time.

As far as a division of awards between military and labor, I have personally seen examples of almost every "military only" order given to a civilian for labor. These include:

HSU

Red Banner

Red Star

I have personally seen examples of every labor award given to military officers.

I have never seen a civilian earn a "commander" award, the Order of Glory, Homeland, or Patriotic War, or the medal For Valor or For Military Merit without having previously served in the military and earned the award.

Hope that helps!

Dave

[NavyFCO]

For example, here is a group to a civilian film producer that I once owned. He had the Lenin, Red Banner, Red Banner of Labor and Red Star. That I am aware of, he never served in the military.

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

Still, I think we need to remind ourselves -- and constantly remain aware -- that there is a chronology here. Not all orders and medals were created and available at the same moment in time, different tools lay in the toolbox of honor at different times. Likewise, within the context of an abiding overall ideology (very different from that of capitalist societies), there were momentary needs that had to be served (was agricultural production going well, was the war goiung badly, etc.).

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Dave,

dear Ed,

many thanks for your valueable contributions to that topic .

It is very interesting from the historical and phaleristical viewpoint, that the tradition to confer civil awards to officers broke after the GPW.

Dave,

what about a (theoretical) case of an officer, who got in 1937 an RBL as an manager of a factory and had been been an officer during the GPW (receiving some military awards). How detailed is his pre-war RBL mentioned in the archives?

Many thanks for sharing the highly interesting group of film producer Ivanov with us . If Ivanov had been active as a movie maker in the GPW - what I am sure, due to his (old) screwback Lenin -, than he wore during the GPW a uniform - something between a Lt. and a Maj. - like all the other writers, journalists, photographers and movie makers. Then he was member of the Red Army. The Red Star is an award all the propaganda people got after the GPW. Maybe he got the ORB for filming a great action under dangerous circumstances. Maybe he got the Lenin for a movie just before the war and the RBL T 3 for another movie just after the war. What is exactly written at the stamp on the photograph - is it of an war commissariat?

Ed,

till - I guess - 1947 it was possible for non-military people to receive OGPW 1cl & 2cl and - as Dave pointed out - BoH had been rather frequently confered to officers.

Achievements in economy were at least as important, than military achievments.

The fact is, that the Soviet Union won the GPW due to their superiority in economy, production and quality of weapons (tanks, airplanes, rifles, etc.). Soviet economy was definitly superior to the German economy during WW II, with their shortcomings in organization and product design.

Best regards

Christian

[NavyFCO]

what about a (theoretical) case of an officer, who got in 1937 an RBL as an manager of a factory and had been been an officer during the GPW (receiving some military awards). How detailed is his pre-war RBL mentioned in the archives?

Many thanks for sharing the highly interesting group of film producer Ivanov with us . If Ivanov had been active as a movie maker in the GPW - what I am sure, due to his (old) screwback Lenin -, than he wore during the GPW a uniform - something between a Lt. and a Maj. - like all the other writers, journalists, photographers and movie makers. Then he was member of the Red Army. The Red Star is an award all the propaganda people got after the GPW. Maybe he got the ORB for filming a great action under dangerous circumstances. Maybe he got the Lenin for a movie just before the war and the RBL T 3 for another movie just after the war. What is exactly written at the stamp on the photograph - is it of an war commissariat?

Christian:

As for your first question, the mention of the RBL for non-military actions prior to the War would probably not amount for more than a line that mentions something to the effect of "Awarded the Red Banner of Labor in 1937." Maybe, just maybe if you were lucky, it might say "Awarded the Red Banner of Labor for the successful management of a factory in 1937."

That's about it.

As for the movie maker, he was actually one of the directors of MosFilm (or was it LenFilm?) during the War, so as far as I know he didn't don a uniform during the War. The Lenin is from 1939, and his Red Star is from late 1943. His Red Banner dates from 1968. I sold the group because it wasn't "complete"... it was missing an October Revolution.... now I wish I hadn't sold it! Oh well...

Dave

[Christian Zulus]

Aleksandr Gavrilovic Ivanov, film director, LENFILM (1898 - 1984)

Dear Dave,

Ivanov was an important man in Soviet Cinema ....

May I quote, what you wrote about the man & his award group at your own website:

This is a beautiful and fascinating group to Aleksandr Gavrilovich Ivanov, famous actor, director and film producer for Lenfilm. He was born in 1898 in the village of Davydovo in the present Borovichi area, Novgorod region. He fought in the Civil War, from 1918 to 1920. Following his wartime duties, he attended and finished cinema school in Leningrad, and in 1925, began working at the Leningradkino (now Lenfilm) studio. He graduated from the State Research Institute of Art Study in 1935.

His first production film was "The Moon is to the Left" (1929) which he followed by numerous other films, including:

"The Moon is to the Left? (1929)

?The Transport of Fire? (1930)

?Yes, Captain!? (1930)

?On the Borderline? (1938)

?The Submarine T-9? (1943)

?The Sons? (1946)

?The Victorious Return? (1948)

?The Star? (1953)

?The Soldiers? (1957)

In 1960-61, he produced the film trilogy ?Virgin Land Upheaved.? He also produced the film ?If your Comrade Calls You? (1963), and ?The First Russians? (1968).

His Order of Lenin was awarded in February 1939, most likely for his production of the movie "On the Borderline". Interesting to note is the engraved screwnut on the back of the award, with his name and the date of the award! It is interesting to note that at the time of his awarding of the Lenin, only seven thousand had been awarded by that time. It was evidently quite a prestigious award for his work!

Judging from his other awards, it appears that he earned his military awards by working closely with the military to produce pro-military movies. One can assume that his Red Star was awarded for the move "The Submarine T-9", his Red Banner of Labor for his two post-war movies (showing the 'triumphant' Soviet soldier, of course!) and his Red Banner quite possibly for his long standing association with the military.

I found a book in the www about movie maker Ivanov:

Peter BAGROV. Own scale of height. Alexander Ivanov: director and memoir.

Biographical essay about Alexander Ivanov (1898?1984), who was one of the most interesting and less researched directors on Lenfilm. He shot Submarine Т-9 (1943), Star (1949), First Russians (1967).

Alexander IVANOV. On the screen and behind it. ?Karelian-Finnish SSR?.

??Аnd here Josef Vissarionovich died!? From diaries of Ivanov. 1952?1955.

Chapter from memoirs and fragment of Ivanov?s diaries are rare source about life and morality of Soviet filmmakers and supervisors in first part of 1950es.

Ivanov's biography from the www:

IVANOV Alexander Gavrilovich (1898-1984, Leningrad), film director and script writer; People?s Artist of the USSR in 1964, Honoured Worker of Arts of the Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1947. He completed cinema courses at Kino-Sever Film Studio in 1925 and started working at Lenfilm Studio in the same year. He completed postgraduate studies at the Leningrad Branch of the Academy of Art Studies in 1935. He directed 17 films. Developed the genre of war in 1930-50, he produced On the Border, T-9 Submarine, and Sons. Among his major films were Star of 1953 and Soldiers of 1957, the latter awarded a prize at the First All-Union Film Festival in Moscow in 1958. He produced a three-part screen version of M. A. Sholokhov?s Virgin Soil Upturned. He was the director at the Second Creative Association of Lenfilm in 1967. He wrote a book, Half a Century in Cinema, published in Leningrad in 1973. Buried at Serafimovskoe Cemetery. Reference: Муратов Л. Г. Александр Иванов. Л., 1968. I. V. Sepman.

Maybe he had a officers uniform - somewhere - during the GPW ...

He got his (military) ORB at his 70th birthday!!!!

Best regards

Christian