EK 1939 Silver Oaks to 39' RK

[WW2PO]

In need of information as to makers and their "L" markings? Any help will be appreciated and thanks.

[DavidM]

Hello

When you say information on the makers and L marks, what exactly do you have in mind ?

[PKeating]

Eichenlaub were produced by Godet bore either the PKA code "21" or the LDO code L/50. There were two types. They were made of 900 silver. The "21" Godet Oakleaves are generally accepted as being the award pieces while the "L/50" examples were for retail sale. Godet was the sole firm authorised to supply Oakleaves to the Pr?sidialkanzlei.

However, C E Juncker also made Oakleaves, usually marked L/12 with an 800 silver mark. So did Meybauer, who marked their pieces L/13. Steinhauer & L?ck are also believed to have produced Oakleaves. When retail sales of the Knight's Cross were forbidden, LDO-marked pieces were appropriated by the Pr?sidialkanzlei and awarded to recipients in the normal way.

The Godet dies and tooling were used during the 1960s and 1970s to produce restrikes of the wartime awards that are indistinguishable from the real thing. This happened during the tenure of Frau Anneliese Klietmann, wife of Dr Kurt Klietmann. The fakes, for that is what they were, were supplied to high end but less than honest dealers in various countries and many ended up in collections.

Some collectors assert that the restrikes are distinguishable from the originals but nobody has ever been able to give a coherent explanation for these assertions. Other collectors, myself included, would not touch a Godet set with a ten-foot pole, unless it came from a truly unimpeachable, documented source. Even then, Ritterkreuztr?ger and their families have been known to swindle collectors with fakes.

There you go. Hope this is helpful.

Paddy Keating

[Gordon Williamson]

The Steinhauer Oakleaves are an interesting case ( as is their Knight's Cross). Both are illustrated in their retail sales catalogue as items number 12 535 and 12 534 respectively. The Oakleaves sold at RM13.80 including ribbon and case and the Knight's Cross at RM 34.50, also with ribbon and case.

This catalogue contains a notice that the firms mark for retail sales copies is L/16 so clearly post-dates the introduction of the LDO regulations, yet no Steinhauer Knight's Crosses or Oakleaves have ever been seen with the LDO code so it seems that one of Germany's biggest and most important medal making firms and the one which "created" the 1939 Iron Cross, was simply ignoring the regulations.

[PKeating]

The flouting of the regulations by various firms - vaulted EK1, zinc and brass-centrered EK and RK etc etc - is largely why Dr D?hle and the LDO decided to enforce the regulations early in 1941. Did S&L press that tooling back into service for the 1957 re-issue?

Note to WW2PO: Gordon knows more about this subject than most of us have forgotten. If you're interested in reading up on any aspect of the Iron Cross of 1939, including the Knight's Cross and all its grades, you ought to acquire his book.

Paddy

[Gordon Williamson]

Did S&L press that tooling back into service for the 1957 re-issue?

For sure. If you are fortunate enough to pick up a very very early 57 set of Oakleaves, the quality of die striking is superb, very crisp detail and up to wartime standards. I've never seen a 57 set of Oaks by S&L that had any sign of frosting though.

S&L would appear to have concentrated on their Iron Crosses and German Crosses in terms of postwar restriking. Strange given the vast amount of tooling they must have had, that they didn't seem to bother much with other awards. (Though I do remember seeing loads of those 1st Pattern E-Boats with the "o" mark and crappy hinge fitting appear in the early 70s.)

Surprising that they didn't restrike their Knight's Cross of the War Merit Cross as their version is easily as good if not better than Deschler's.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Eichenlaub were produced by Godet bore either the PKA code "21" or the LDO code L/50. There were two types. They were made of 900 silver. The "21" Godet Oakleaves are generally accepted as being the award pieces while the "L/50" examples were for retail sale. Godet was the sole firm authorised to supply Oakleaves to the Pr?sidialkanzlei.

Paddy Keating

L/50's were also awarded.

Edited December 17, 2006 by Brian von Etzel

[Gordon Williamson]

As already pointed out by Prosper, those LDO marked pieces ingathered by the Pr?sidialkanzlei were subsequently awarded in the normal way.

However, C E Juncker also made Oakleaves, usually marked L/12 with an 800 silver mark. So did Meybauer, who marked their pieces L/13. Steinhauer & L?ck are also believed to have produced Oakleaves. When retail sales of the Knight's Cross were forbidden, LDO-marked pieces were appropriated by the Pr?sidialkanzlei and awarded to recipients in the normal way.

I tend to suspect however that just as S&L didn?t bother to mark any of their retail stuff with the L/16, Godet may have added the L/50 mark to all their Oaks, whether for retail or not.

The interesting thing is that even after regulations were tightened up, no S&L pieces carried the L/16 mark - unl;ess of course all of their Knights Cross production went towards fulfilling official orders, with no spare capacity for the retail market.

[WW2PO]

Many thanks to all who have posted so far in response to my inquiry. I have a pair of Oaks, apperring to be truly well made, showing wear to the higher details of the obverse. The edging exhibits the cut lines that are inherent with die stampings. The reverse is solid and containing three distinct markings. On the left is the 900 mark and on the right is a box divided by a horizontal line in the middle. In the upper portion of the box the word SILBER is stamped and in the lower section is stamped L/50. The closest that I can come to the approximate measurements are: Height 19mm - Width 20mm - Weight is 7 grams.

Within the next few days I shall attempt to produce and post photographs of this item.

Edited December 17, 2006 by WW2PO

[Dietrich]

.. Godet may have added the L/50 mark to all their Oaks, whether for retail or not.

This was cleary the case. As one can see when comparing the time line between introduction of the L-numbers, the subsequent prohibition of the private sale of the RK and it's higher grades and award dates of L/50 pieces, especially swords. The difference between L-marking and PKZ-numbering occured later in the production cycle.

[Dietrich]

Here are the oakleaves and the swords from Erich Hartmann. Awarded March resp. July 1944. Both are marked 900-21 which is correct for the award date.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Here are the oakleaves and the swords from Erich Hartmann. Awarded March resp. July 1944. Both are marked 900-21 which is correct for the award date.

Lot of flying history in those two awards Dietrich.

[PKeating]

I don't think the marks have much relevance to the award date. So these are Erich Hartmann's EL and ELS? I gather that these examples have impeccable provenance. It would be interesting to place them beside a couple of "unattributed" examples bought in the 1960s or 1970s from one of the top end dealers known to have been friendly with Frau Klietmann of Godet and to ask certain self-appointed cognoscenti to explain the differences to us.

PK

[Dietrich]

I don't think the marks have much relevance to the award date. So these are Erich Hartmann's EL and ELS? I gather that these examples have impeccable provenance.

I certainly think that marks have a lot of relevance to an award date! I would be very suspicious about a set of oak leaves with 'alledged provenance' for an award date of 1941 and with a marking "21"?

And yes, those are Erich Hartmann's EL and ElmS and they have impeccable provenance. They serve as a datum point and 'cognoscenti' - hard studied or self-appointed - can use them as such. Whatever the individual outcome might be.

Dietrich

[Dietrich]

If this piece is one of Klietmann's (him or her) pieces there's nothing to fear, I guess.

http://cgi.ebay.de/ORIGINALES-Eichenlaub-m...1QQcmdZViewItem

[Guest WAR LORD]

A question is begged, why are the awarded Eagle Orders marked with the L/50 mark after aprox 1942? If as has been stated that this is the private purchase mark?

[Gordon Williamson]

If this piece is one of Klietmann's (him or her) pieces there's nothing to fear, I guess.

http://cgi.ebay.de/ORIGINALES-Eichenlaub-m...1QQcmdZViewItem

Not one of Klietmann's but before anyone screams "fake" this is instantly recognisable as a nice enough Steinhauer set. I guess thats why there have been so many bids - these are not easy to find.

[Dietrich]

[PKeating]

I certainly think that marks have a lot of relevance to an award date! I would be very suspicious about a set of oak leaves with 'alledged provenance' for an award date of 1941 and with a marking "21"?

And yes, those are Erich Hartmann's EL and ElmS and they have impeccable provenance. They serve as a datum point and 'cognoscenti' - hard studied or self-appointed - can use them as such. Whatever the individual outcome might be.

Erich Hartmann received the ELmS on 4.7.1944, having received the EL on 2.3.1944. All we can glean from the markings on Hartmann's two awards, in terms of timeline, is that they were supplied by Godet to the Pr?sidialkanzlei as part of an official order sometime between the latter half of 1941, when the second pattern Oakleaves design was introduced, and early to mid-1944, when Hartmann was invested with them. In other words, they were official award pieces made sometime between mid-1941 and the dates, respectively, of the awards to Hartmann.

There is no reason to be suspicious of a set of Godet ELmS bearing the "21" mark and awarded in 1941, allowing that we are talking about awards with verifiable provenance predating the Frau Klietmann skulduggery of the 1960s and 1970s. There could be some cause for concern if a group appeared with a set of Godet ELmS marked "L/50" and said to have been awarded by the F?hrer to such-and-such a person in 1941. It would not follow that these were fake but it would be unlikely that they were the actual award piece.

Let me be more precise for the benefit, at least, of people reading this thread for educational purposes. In fact, I shall be boring and repetitive in an attempt to force a passage through the misinformation and disinformation.

Several months elapsed between the institution of the ELmS on 17.7.1941 and the LDO ban on retail sales of Germany's highest awards. Between July and the end of 1941, several firms, including Godet, produced both Oakleaves and Oakleaves with Swords for retail purposes. The link to eBay in this thread shows a set by Steinhauer & L?ck with a certificate by Dr Klietmann. Now, even though his wife appears to have engaged in some questionable enterprises during her time at the helm of Godet in the 1960s and 1970s, Dr Klietmann seems to have been honest and, moreover, qualified to authenticate awards, which is more than can be said for some of the people issuing Certificates of Authenticity.

The majority of these retail pieces were appropriated by the authorities after the ban on retail sales. In most cases, they bore LDO marks although a few appear not to have been marked at all. So, from early 1942, recipients of various grades of the Knight's Cross sometimes received LDO-marked examples from the stocks appropriated and held by the authorities.

Hartmann's Oakleaves are of the second type, with the flatter reverse for, most students agree, easier attachment of the longer riband loop required in the case of the Oakleaves with Swords. The first type had a more pronounced concave reverse. So they postdate July 1941. The Oakleaves of the ELmS set are obviously second pattern for the reason I have just stated. Both awards occur with "21" and "L/50" marks but I would suggest that LDO-marked Godet ELmS are rather rare, again for the reasons stated in this post. Perhaps, on reflection, it is more accurate to say that original examples, with verifiable provenance, are rather rare as LDO-marked Godet ELmS became far less rare in the 1960s and 1970s! So did their Oakleaves.

Regarding Christopher Ailsby's question about L/50-marked Eagle Orders: if retail sales of the Eagle Order were also forbidden at some point - something I am unaware of as I have never paid the Eagle Order much attention - then it would follow that LDO-marked pieces were given to recipients at official award ceremonies, as with Knight's Cross recipients. If not, then it might not mean that one was looking at a postwar repop; Godet could just as easily have sent the PK an award taken from stocks intended for supply to retail outlets. However, I tend to be nervous of Godet Third Reich awards in general, because of the extent of Frau Klietmann's evident chicanery. The only high end "Godet" award with which I feel really comfortable is their Knight's Cross...because it was made by C F Zimmermann and the dies appear to have been lost, if the rarity of this type of cross is a reliable indication.

PK

Edited December 18, 2006 by PKeating

[Dietrich]

There is no reason to be suspicious of a set of Godet ELmS bearing the "21" mark and awarded in 1941, allowing that we are talking about awards with verifiable provenance

You seem to have the missing link! So far, the assumption was that the PKZ-# was introduced (or mandated) from 1944 on. Numerous awards with provenance support this clearly.

Where do you found the evidence that in 1941 the PKZ-# was already asigned and in use? Please share this info with us. It is really important! So far, we were only sure about the date for the inroduction of the LDO-number. Even in the archives of the PKZ/Ordenskanzlei between 1939 and March 1942 nothing is mentioned.

Thanks for sharing!

Dietrich

[PKeating]

So no awards had PK codes until 1944? I cannot recall reading that anywhere. I must have missed something. Oh dear. Perhaps you could show me some documentary evidence to the effect that PK numbers did not exist before 1944? I must go and check all my reference books and files.

This is confusing. So, are you suggesting that the Lieferant number system was not introduced before 1944? Or are you referring to the order stipulating the application of Lieferant numbers in 1944 in the case of Knights' Crosses? Are you saying that no set of Godet Oakleaves or Oakleaves with Swords bore the firm's Lieferant code before mid-1944?

Does this mean, in fact, that Godet stamped all of their Oakleaves and Oakleaves with Swords with their LDO code from 1940/41 to 1944? Gosh. I always thought that the LDO numbers were for retail pieces. Just goes to show that one cannot always trust what one reads, doesn't it? I cannot recall having seen any unhallmarked Godet EL and ELmS although I gather there are some examples.

So Godet never marked their EL and ELmS with the Lieferant number before mid-1944? Fascinating! You come up with new information all the time.

PK

Edited December 19, 2006 by PKeating

[Dietrich]

So no awards had PK codes until 1944? I cannot recall reading that anywhere. I must have missed something. Oh dear. Perhaps you could show me some documentary evidence to the effect that PK numbers did not exist before 1944? I must go and check all my reference books and files.

The only "documentary evidence" I have is that there is nothing today that documents the existence before 44. At least not in the literature and sources I have. But there is ample circumstantial evidence that there was none before 1944. Based on that I made my comment about the "21" in 1941.

At any rate, I thought, based on your comment, you would have such a document showing the existence of the PKZ-# before 1944.

Dietrich

Edited December 19, 2006 by Dietrich

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I was looking forward to becoming more 'educated' and became only the more confused. I look forward to the show and tell of PKz numbers pre-44.

Edited December 19, 2006 by Brian von Etzel

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I certainly think that marks have a lot of relevance to an award date! I would be very suspicious about a set of oak leaves with 'alledged provenance' for an award date of 1941 and with a marking "21"?

Dietrich

And I am still confused regarding a comment from PK that L/50 oaks were for 'retail'? Wouldn't 1st pattern oaks with L/50 be for award and retail given the date... My head is spinning.

[PKeating]

Well, I am afraid that I cannot think of any way of helping you two gentlemen. Sorry. I hope you manage to sort it out.

PK