Further information about my great grandfather?

[Kang]

Name:THAKUR SINGHNationality:IndianRank:NaikRegiment/Service:51st Sikhs (Frontier Force)Date of Death:01/08/1916Service No:1229Additional information:Son of Sundar Singh, of Kang, Nakodar, Jullundar, Punjab.Casualty Type:Commonwealth War DeadGrave/Memorial Reference:Panel 52 and 67.Memorial:BASRA MEMORIAL

Thanks

[Kang]

Name:THAKUR SINGHNationality:IndianRank:NaikRegiment/Service:51st Sikhs (Frontier Force)Date of Death:01/08/1916Service No:1229Additional information:Son of Sundar Singh, of Kang, Nakodar, Jullundar, Punjab.Casualty Type:Commonwealth War DeadGrave/Memorial Reference:Panel 52 and 67.Memorial:BASRA MEMORIAL

Thanks

I know my great-grandfathers (Battan Singh s/o Sunder and Thakar Singh s/o Sunder resident of village KANG SAHBU District Jalandhar, Punjab, INDIA) were in the Indian Army during the WW1.

The written information of these three medals I have is as follows:-

1. Front of medal: GEORGIVS V KAISA - I - HIND

Back of medal: INDIA

On the side: 2205 SEPOY BATTAN SINGH , 1-26 PUBIS.

On the top part: WAZIRISTAN 1919-21

2. Front of medal: GEORGIVS V BRITT: OMN:REX ET IND: IMP:

Back of medal: 1914-1918

On the side: 1229 NK. THAKAR SINGH , 51 SIKHS

3. Front of medal: GEORGIVS VI G: BR.OMN:REX ET.INDIAE IMP:

Back of medal: 1939-1945

On the side: 908 NK. BACHAN SINGH, I. P. C. (The number 908 is not clear. The 8 may be a 9)

Do you know any Indian Army Records website or email address available to research for these medals above? Very hard to find.

Would you please find out further information about these about these two regiments 1-26 Punjabis and 51st Sikhs and medals belonging to my great-grandfathers.

Thanking you,

JSKang

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

watch this space... I know little about the subject but the forum has just the people to help you. I think the group you have may be split (i.e. the non silver medals discarded), but you may still have a good chance of finding at least some info on him.

[Kang]

Hi,

watch this space... I know little about the subject but the forum has just the people to help you. I think the group you have may be split (i.e. the non silver medals discarded), but you may still have a good chance of finding at least some info on him.

Hi,

Haven't heard anything for a while. It would be great to find out further information about my Great Grandfather?

Do you have any medals to the 51st Sikhs Frontier Force? Please e-mail me.

Thanks

Mr Kang

[Ed_Haynes]

Ohhhh . . . somehow I missed this. Let me drag down some sources . . . .

[Ed_Haynes]

OK, what you have here are three separate medals to three distinct individuals.

1- India General Service Medal, 1908, clasp Wasiristan 1919-21 to 2205 SEPOY BATTAN SINGH, 1-26 PUBIS. He may be missing WWI medals but there is no way to say.

2- British War Medal 1914-18 to 1229 NK. THAKAR SINGH, 51 SIKHS. Obviously, you already found him in the CWGC website. He is probably missing a 1914-15 Star and surely missing an Allied Victory Medal. Until recently, Indian groups routinely got split up by metal. In WWI the 51st: 2 companies Sikhs (his), 1/2 of Dogras, 1 of Pathans, 1/2 of Punjabi Muslims. Went in the Frontier Brigade to serve on the Suez Canal, at Aden, and to the Tigris. 3 Jan 1916: 28th Infantry Brigade (Maj Gen G. V. Kemball), 7th Division (Maj Gen G. Younghusband) at Ali Gharbi. On 21 January 1916, casualties: 4 BO, 2 IO, 104 OR. 27 January 1916: in 28th Brigade (left back of the Tigris) with 2 BO, 8 IO, 405 OR. 27 February 1916: in 28th Infantry Brigade (Maj Gen G. V. Kemball), 7th Division (Maj Gen G. Younghusband), Tigris Corps. 7 March 1916: 28th Brigade (13 BO, 13 IO, 576 OR). On 8-9 March 1916, 4 killed, 54 wounded, 1 missing (8% casualties). 5 April 1916: 28th Brigade, 7th Division: 4 BO, 12 IO, 568 OR. 22 April 1916: 3 BO, 4 IO, 316 OR. 15 July 1916: still in 28th Brigade (Lt Col A. E. Davies), 7th (Meerut) Division (Maj Gen A. S. Cobbe); the same 27 August 1916, in the Sinh-Shaikh Saad area (Tigris Corps). 19 November 1916: 28th Infantry Brigade (Brig C. H. Davies), 7th Division (Maj Gen V. B. Fane), 1st Indian Army Corps (Lt Gen A. S. Cobbe), Tigris Front. 21 January 1917: 28th Infantry Brigade, 3rd Division, 1st Corps, Tigris Front. 27 May 1917: 28th Infantry Brigade, 7th Division, 1st Corps, Tigris Frong; on the right bank of the Tigris, north of Samarra station. Still there 18 November 1917, but apparently gone by 30 March 1918. Later, to Palestine.

3- A WWII War Medal to 908 NK. BACHAN SINGH, I. P. C.

Records, if any, are unavailable. Still with the regiments, maybe. In India at least, releasing this information is a crime.

Edited December 11, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[Kang]

Dear Ed,

Thank you very much for the information.

Do you know where I can find the indian medal card online for my great grandfather NK THAKAR SINGH and BATTAN SINGH? I can't find it on national archives website?

Also is it possible in Commonwealth War Graves website, to extract all casualty records (ww1) who come from my village Kang Sabhu in Punjab? I know a couple of records I found. Maybe there are some more records. I would be grateful if you got a list of these by e-mail?

Thank you

Mr Kang

OK, what you have here are three separate medals to three distinct individuals.

1- India General Service Medal, 1908, clasp Wasiristan 1919-21 to 2205 SEPOY BATTAN SINGH, 1-26 PUBIS. He may be missing WWI medals but there is no way to say.

2- British War Medal 1914-18 to 1229 NK. THAKAR SINGH, 51 SIKHS. Obviously, you already found him in the CWGC website. He is probably missing a 1914-15 Star and surely missing an Allied Victory Medal. Until recently, Indian groups routinely got split up by metal. In WWI the 51st: 2 companies Sikhs (his), 1/2 of Dogras, 1 of Pathans, 1/2 of Punjabi Muslims. Went in the Frontier Brigade to serve on the Suez Canal, at Aden, and to the Tigris. 3 Jan 1916: 28th Infantry Brigade (Maj Gen G. V. Kemball), 7th Division (Maj Gen G. Younghusband) at Ali Gharbi. On 21 January 1916, casualties: 4 BO, 2 IO, 104 OR. 27 January 1916: in 28th Brigade (left back of the Tigris) with 2 BO, 8 IO, 405 OR. 27 February 1916: in 28th Infantry Brigade (Maj Gen G. V. Kemball), 7th Division (Maj Gen G. Younghusband), Tigris Corps. 7 March 1916: 28th Brigade (13 BO, 13 IO, 576 OR). On 8-9 March 1916, 4 killed, 54 wounded, 1 missing (8% casualties). 5 April 1916: 28th Brigade, 7th Division: 4 BO, 12 IO, 568 OR. 22 April 1916: 3 BO, 4 IO, 316 OR. 15 July 1916: still in 28th Brigade (Lt Col A. E. Davies), 7th (Meerut) Division (Maj Gen A. S. Cobbe); the same 27 August 1916, in the Sinh-Shaikh Saad area (Tigris Corps). 19 November 1916: 28th Infantry Brigade (Brig C. H. Davies), 7th Division (Maj Gen V. B. Fane), 1st Indian Army Corps (Lt Gen A. S. Cobbe), Tigris Front. 21 January 1917: 28th Infantry Brigade, 3rd Division, 1st Corps, Tigris Front. 27 May 1917: 28th Infantry Brigade, 7th Division, 1st Corps, Tigris Frong; on the right bank of the Tigris, north of Samarra station. Still there 18 November 1917, but apparently gone by 30 March 1918. Later, to Palestine.

3- A WWII War Medal to 908 NK. BACHAN SINGH, I. P. C.

Records, if any, are unavailable. Still with the regiments, maybe. In India at least, releasing this information is a crime.

[Ed_Haynes]

The WWI Indian medal cards were still maintained in the Army Medal Office (in New Delhi, of course) until the late 1970s. Unfortunately they were never transferred, as they should have been, to the National Archives of India. At that time, they were thrown out -- yes, just thrown out -- to make space in what was then, and still is, a working office. And no one was there to intercept the disposal or even knew it had taken place until after the fact. This sad tale just goes to show that records of historical importance should be freed from the clutches of working bureaucrats -- especially bureaucrats in uniform. Efforts are underway to get what ever else may still be in their dubious custody (or in the Ministry of Defence Historical Section) transferred into safe and competent hands. Some material has already been transferred to the National Archives and some to the Centre for Armed orces Historical Research (at the United Services Institution of India). So far as I know, nothing has yet emerged that would help you with your questions.

Efforts are underway to collect the pre-1947 service records, extending back to WWI or earlier in some cases that still lie with the individual regiments (in variable states of repair and organisation) and get them scanned. This is a very long, very delicate, and very complex task, even with the nominal support of the current Chief of the Army Staff. For regiments that went to Pakistan in 1947 (like the 26th Punjabis and 51st Sikhs), this project won't help at all. No one seems to know what happened to their records, though the word "destruction" comes to mind.

The CWGC's focus has not been much on Indians (as not many of them had "graves" anyway), but they might be able to respond to a written request (yes, a letter). They can do searches on their records that are not possible online. But their records for Indians are woefully incomplete, largely due to their funeral customs.

Very little research can be done online in any field, but when it comes to Indians even less can be done than is possible for natives (of the British Isles).

[Kang]

The WWI Indian medal cards were still maintained in the Army Medal Office (in New Delhi, of course) until the late 1970s. Unfortunately they were never transferred, as they should have been, to the National Archives of India. At that time, they were thrown out -- yes, just thrown out -- to make space in what was then, and still is, a working office. And no one was there to intercept the disposal or even knew it had taken place until after the fact. This sad tale just goes to show that records of historical importance should be freed from the clutches of working bureaucrats -- especially bureaucrats in uniform. Efforts are underway to get what ever else may still be in their dubious custody (or in the Ministry of Defence Historical Section) transferred into safe and competent hands. Some material has already been transferred to the National Archives and some to the Centre for Armed orces Historical Research (at the United Services Institution of India). So far as I know, nothing has yet emerged that would help you with your questions.

Efforts are underway to collect the pre-1947 service records, extending back to WWI or earlier in some cases that still lie with the individual regiments (in variable states of repair and organisation) and get them scanned. This is a very long, very delicate, and very complex task, even with the nominal support of the current Chief of the Army Staff. For regiments that went to Pakistan in 1947 (like the 26th Punjabis and 51st Sikhs), this project won't help at all. No one seems to know what happened to their records, though the word "destruction" comes to mind.

The CWGC's focus has not been much on Indians (as not many of them had "graves" anyway), but they might be able to respond to a written request (yes, a letter). They can do searches on their records that are not possible online. But their records for Indians are woefully incomplete, largely due to their funeral customs.

Very little research can be done online in any field, but when it comes to Indians even less can be done than is possible for natives (of the British Isles).

Hi Ed,

I want to ask you further queries.

My Great Grandfather, rank is 'naik' which is the same as 'corporal'. Is this correct? Is there a record or Indian army register book that tell when he started in the army and also moved to a higher rank from sepoy to naik?

What kind of duties or responsibility do you think my Great Grandfather work in the army (rank 'Naik' compare to sepoy)?

Many thanks

JSKang

[Ed_Haynes]

The only records that are available (other than for Europeans) are for VCOs (Viceroy's Commissioned Officers) who are listed in the Army Lists. Junior non-commissioned officers, like a naik (and, you are right, a corporal-equivalent) were never recorded above the regiment.

[Kang]

The only records that are available (other than for Europeans) are for VCOs (Viceroy's Commissioned Officers) who are listed in the Army Lists. Junior non-commissioned officers, like a naik (and, you are right, a corporal-equivalent) were never recorded above the regiment.

Do you know what kind of uniform my Great Grandfather (51st Sikh Frontier Force) worn at that time? Do you have a picture?

[lordyork]

Do you know what kind of uniform my Great Grandfather (51st Sikh Frontier Force) worn at that time? Do you have a picture?

I HAVE A COLOUR PRINT OF THE 51ST. SIKHS FRONTIER FROCE DONE IN 1911, I CANNOT ATTACH IT AS TOO BIG, LET ME HAVE AN E-MAIL ADDRESS AND I WILL SEND THAT WAY. AN ANCESTOR OF MINE A MAJOR WAS KILLED WITH THE 51ST ON 22/4/1917 ON THE BANKS OF THE TIGRIS RIVER IN IRAQ.

REGARDS LORD YORK