Soviet Russian GPW-Memento-Coins of the 1990s

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

at this thread I want to show some very nice - and very well made - ten Russian GPW-Memento-Coins of the 1990s, where the US-influnce to Russian authorities in terms of "seeing the history of WW II" is more than obvious . These coins are presented in a very nice and informative box, as you can see.

You can easily dedect the influence of the US-State Department at the motives shown at the coins and the inscriptions: i.e. "Occupation of Mandchuria" - it has been a real war against Japan in China & Korea .

The first coin - as you can see at the rv. - was still issued in 1991 in the former CCCP. The rest was issued in the "Years of Agony", with "Boris-Dancing-Star" as president of Russia. He had been a charming guy, but had (or has) two mature problems: Alcohol & (mental) diseases (depressoins, etc., etc.). O.K., Yeltsin hadn't the stature of a Stalin or a Putin, but he had been worse, than comrade Brezhnev . Some coins are a disgrace to Soviet veterans, who fought against Nazi-Germany: i.e. "Meeting with US-Troops at the river Elbe". Even the capitulation of Germany is noted with the "wrong" date: 8th of may 1945 .

Here is the Wikipedia-link to Bors Yeltsin with some really nice photographs, showing Yeltsin's "friendship" to the USA (and to his bankaccount in Switzerland ) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Yeltsin .

Coming back to the topic: It is an astonishing historic fact, how big the influence of the West - even in the field of numusmatics! - had been in Russia in the 1990s.

Best regards

Christian

First 5 coins:

Edited January 11, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Christian Zulus]

First 5 coins (notes):

[Christian Zulus]

Second 5 coins:

[Christian Zulus]

Second 5 coins (notes):

[Christian Zulus]

rv. of the first coins:

Cover of the box av.:

Cover of the box rv.:

[Christian Zulus]

rv. of the inside (1), showing a Cavalier of the Order of Glory:

[Christian Zulus]

rv. of the inside (2), showing the battle of Stalingrad:

[Christophe]

Christian,

As you said it : These are really memento or "collectors" coins (generally in precious metals, silver, gold...) that you can purchase, but that has no currency value... They have been issued, but not for circulation or currency value. I doubt they really circulated. Who made them? A private company certainly... Its influence, who knows ?

What surprises me is that they talk about "Normandy Invasion". In the US (and in France too!!!!), it is considered that the US troops "liberated" (more than invaded) Normandy...

Who made these coins ? Interesting to knwo, in my opinion...

Cheers.

Ch.

[Christian Zulus]

Christian,

As you said it : These are really memento or "collectors" coins (generally in precious metals, silver, gold...) that you can purchase, but that has no currency value... They have been issued, but not for circulation or currency value. I doubt they really circulated. Who made them? A private company certainly... Its influence, who knows ?

What surprises me is that they talk about "Normandy Invasion". In the US (and in France too!!!!), it is considered that the US troops "liberated" (more than invaded) Normandy...

Who made these coins ? Interesting to knwo, in my opinion...

Cheers.

Ch.

Dear Christophe,

as you can see at the rv. of the coins, they are official currency made be the Russian Mint. You could go to McDonalds in Moscow and buy some "Big Mac's" with them .

That's the point, why the US-influence is so interesting (for a historian) .

There are a lot of "collectors" coins, but these are genuine .

"Normandy Invasion" is the correct term among historians, because a large number of French people (and business men) where rather happy under the German government . The French wine-business almost "exploded" under the German government ... You know the history of France after autumn 1944, how the "collaborators" were treated .

Coming back to the point: The coins I introduced at GMIC are official currency made by the Russian Mint.

Best regards

Christian

Edited January 11, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Christophe]

Christian,

We could longer discuss the French aspects you mention on a macro- instead of micro-economical/political view. But, that's not the subject here.

What I want to understand : even if they are "official currency made by the Russian Mint", did they have really circulated ? They, again, look like more to collectors items... even if made by the official mint... But, maybe I am wrong ...

Ch.

[Christian Zulus]

What I want to understand : even if they are "official currency made by the Russian Mint", did they have really circulated ? They, again, look like more to collectors items... even if made by the official mint... But, maybe I am wrong ...

Ch.

Dear Christophe,

these coins never made their way into circulation, but they are real and authentic currency. You could pay your bill at McDonalds in Moscow .

The fact is, that these coins had been produced by the official Russian Mint for collectors - collectors in Russia, but also in the West.

What I wanted to point out, is the fact, that these coins are unique for the Yeltsin-Period in Russian history.

Best regards

Christian

[Christophe]

Dear Christophe,

these coins never made their way into circulation, but they are real and authentic currency. You could pay your bill at McDonalds in Moscow .

The fact is, that these coins had been produced by the official Russian Mint for collectors - collectors in Russia, but also in the West.

What I wanted to point out, is the fact, that these coins are unique for the Yeltsin-Period in Russian history.

Best regards

Christian

No circulation, but authentic currency... for collectors. No pb...

But, OK, I understand your point.

Cheers.

Ch.

[Guest RedThreat]

Guys, what are you arguing about? Most commemorative coins in all countries are issued in limited quantity and cost more than their face value. They can be used as regular currency but nobody in his right mind would do that.

I think the term invasion in Invasion of Normandy refers to the situation from the German point of view. Allied forces invaded the territory of Third Reich. Likewise, Soviet "Capture of" series of medals can be misinterpreted as awards for invasion. If Russian government at the time of coin issue considered the action of Allied troops in France as unfairly aggressive, it wouldn't have issued the coin. Notice there is a Soviet flag on the coin which suggests that American and British forces by landing in France joined Sov. Union in its fight against Nazis. The Russian text on the coin is "Opening of the second front" meaning that Russian Front was the 1st and Allies created the 2nd anti-Nazi front.

Cheers,

Simon

[Christian Zulus]

Guys, what are you arguing about? Most commemorative coins in all countries are issued in limited quantity and cost more than their face value. They can be used as regular currency but nobody in his right mind would do that.

I think the term invasion in Invasion of Normandy refers to the situation from the German point of view. Allied forces invaded the territory of Third Reich. Likewise, Soviet "Capture of" series of medals can be misinterpreted as awards for invasion. If Russian government at the time of coin issue considered the action of Allied troops in France as unfairly aggressive, it wouldn't have issued the coin. Notice there is a Soviet flag on the coin which suggests that American and British forces by landing in France joined Sov. Union in its fight against Nazis. The Russian text on the coin is "Opening of the second front" meaning that Russian Front was the 1st and Allies created the 2nd anti-Nazi front.

Cheers,

Simon

Dear Simon,

wise words .

Coming back to the "Normandy-Coin". The flag of the CCCP is located in the east and twice time larger, than the flag of the Anglo-Saxons . The fact is, that the people of Europe, the Jews and the people of the Soviet Union had to wait for years for the opening of the "Second Front" . Another fact is, that the Anglo-Saxons negotiated till the 9th of may 1945 with Nazi-leaders - specially SS-Himmler - for a "favourable" capitulation (partly successful in Italy). The plan (Churchill) had been, to incorporate the Wehrmacht into a "3rd World War" against Communism. After the war, the Nazi-secret-service - "Organisation Gehlen" - with a lot of high ranking SS-officers had been incorporated by the USA (years later the "Organisation Gehlen" was renamed into "Bundesnachrichtendienst" BND). O.K., for years during the GPW our Soviet comrades called the (high quality) corned beef and the (excellent) boots from the USA the "Second Front" .

BTW: The core of the NASA had been SS-officers - "Paper-Clip-Affair" . Everybody knows Wernher von Braun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun , but he has been SS-Sturmbannfuehrer and his title as a professor had been personally confered by Adolf Hitler. About 20.000 Jews and other victims died under his obsession for building rockets in Nazi-Germany .

What I want to say is, that the game of the Anglo-Saxons (specially Churchill, not so much Roosevelt) had not been a "fair" play towards the Soviet Union. Truman liquidated the rest of humanity in US-policies - Hiroshima & Nagasaki .

More about that subject you can read in the publications and books of the renowed ex-Soviet expert Valentin Valin http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentin_Falin and http://russland.ru/kapitulation1/morenews.php?iditem=39 (sorry, only in German, because I don't use a Russian browser ). Falin has written an excellent book about the "Second Front": http://www.amazon.de/Zweite-Front-Die-Inte...TF8&s=books (only in German - I don't know, if there is a Russian edition).

Best regards

Christian

[Christophe]

Guys, what are you arguing about? Most commemorative coins in all countries are issued in limited quantity and cost more than their face value. They can be used as regular currency but nobody in his right mind would do that.

(...)

Cheers,

Simon

Hi Simon and Christian,

No bad feeling at all in arguing, here. I just thought these had been issued by a private company, as they are in every country. As this point was not, in my opinion, clearly enough stated in Christian's first post, hence our Gentlemen discussion. But, this was not the case, as they have been made by the Russian Mint.

And that's here that Christian's thread gets all its value and interest for us. I fully agree on this. Thanks again for posting it, Christian.

Cheers.

Ch.

[Guest RedThreat]

Hi, Christian and Christophe:

Hi Simon and Christian,

No bad feeling at all in arguing, here. I just thought these had been issued by a private company, as they are in every country. As this point was not, in my opinion, clearly enough stated in Christian's first post, hence our Gentlemen discussion. But, this was not the case, as they have been made by the Russian Mint.

...

Cheers.

Ch.

Christophe, sorry I didn't read your posts carefully and wrote obvious facts about the monetary value of commemorative coins.

Christian, thank you for posting pics of this set. I love the monument in Treptow Park shown on the package. IMHO, English labels and commentaries make these coins appear as Yeltsin era "bow to the West" style of art. The coins themselves don't belittle the war effort of the Soviet Union. Coin 1 English label is timid "Defense of Moscow." The Russian coin inscription is "50 years of Destruction of German-Faschist troops near Moscow." The commentary stresses the German excuse for their defeat: poor roads and weather. Coin 3 label states "Allied Supply Convoy." The text on the coin is "Northern Convoy." Commentaries to this coin on the package describe how much US and Britain helped Russia. On Russian mint website, it is written next to this coin that convoys returned to Britain with Russia's raw materials. In this set, the coin with text "50th Anniversary of Victory on Kursk salient" has an English commentary saying that the battle was inconclusive.

Some coins are a disgrace to Soviet veterans, who fought against Nazi-Germany: i.e. "Meeting with US-Troops at the river Elbe".

Christian, why do you find this coin offensive? The meeting took place and was celebrated after the war. On 20th anniversary of this event Russian and American veterans met for a commemorative ceremony.

"Capitulation of Germany" coin is the only true Yeltsin era "masterpiece". I think the coin shows the act of surrender in Allied headquarters in Rheims, not the ceremony in Karlst Hall, Berlin.

"The occupation of Manchuria" label and English sidenote spoil the impression of the coin with inscription "Destruction of Kwantung Army in Manchuria." I like the comment on Russian mint website much more, "USSR entered the war against militarist Japan fighting its main ground force - Kwantung Army. Its destruction caused Japan's unconditional surrender." The coin itself shows that it was a war, not an occupation of a piece of land. Russian soldiers stand on Japanese banners and point weapons at Japanese POWs. This set was obviously marketed to extract $$$ from Westerners. The coins' meaning was lost in translation. BTW, Russian mint issued more coins to commemorate 50th anniversary of Victory but these coins wouldn't please American tourists and were excluded from this set.

Destruction of Nazis near Leningrad:

http://www.cbr.ru/bank-notes_coins/base_of...t_num=5011-0008

Soviet representative signs Japan's act of surrender:

http://www.cbr.ru/bank-notes_coins/base_of...t_num=5011-0022

The next 2 will be Christian's favorite (-:

Vena liberation: http://www.cbr.ru/bank-notes_coins/base_of...t_num=5011-0016

Belgrade liberation:

http://www.cbr.ru/bank-notes_coins/base_of...t_num=5011-0012

This post is too long already. Russian mint issued more 50th anniversary of Victory coins.

Cheers,

Simon

Edited January 15, 2007 by RedThreat

[Christian Zulus]

Lost in Translation

Dear Simon,

many, many thanks for the highly important further informations .

It is interesting, that the Russian Mint boxed only a "selction" of these coins for the collectors outside of the Eastern World and that they wrote completly "new" descriptions of the coins.

So, we find ONE real history of the WW II, but TWO controversial ways of seeing that history: The "Walt-Disney-Prod."-approch since 1946 from the majority of US- and GB-historians and the rather scientific approach from the majority of Russian historians, some European and also from some US- and GB-historians .

Christian, why do you find this coin offensive? The meeting took place and was celebrated after the war. On 20th anniversary of this event Russian and American veterans met for a commemorative ceremony.

Simon

O.K., in such a small collection of memento coins dealing with Russia during the GPW, the "Elbe-Event" has by far not the same weight, like defense of Leningrad, Stalingrad or the battle at the Kursk salient.

It had been nice, that US- and SU-troops met at the river Elbe, lots of vodka and a big party, but the military importance of that meeting was "zero".

So, that is my argumentation, why I assume, that this special coin might be an offense to GPW-vets. Loosing a leg at Kursk is not the same, as drinking vodka and whisky with GIs at the river Elbe .

Is there the FULL collection of the whole series of these coins somewhere in the www - maybe with english commentaries?

Thanks again and best regards

Christian

[Guest RedThreat]

Dear Christian:

many, many thanks for the highly important further informations

You are welcome.

It had been nice, that US- and SU-troops met at the river Elbe, lots of vodka and a big party, but the military importance of that meeting was "zero".

It's true but the symbolic value of this event was always highlighted in the Soviet Union. I think it's even shown in 1949 movie Fall of Berlin. If you haven't seen this film, I highly recommend it. This movie was a gift to Stalin on his 70th birthday. Even as a child in the Soviet Union, I heard a lot about Elbe meeting. In a Cold War hit song "Do Russians want a war", there are words:

Ask those who fought,

Who hugged you on the Elbe,

We are true to that memory

Whether Russians,

Whether Russians,

Whether Russians want a war!

This song was highly popular. I even heard its performance in English translation.

Cheers,

Simon

[Christophe]

Hi, Christian and Christophe:

Christophe, sorry I didn't read your posts carefully and wrote obvious facts about the monetary value of commemorative coins.(...)

Simon

Hi Simon,

No pb. Interesting discusion here.

Cheers.

Ch.

[Christian Zulus]

It's true but the symbolic value of this event was always highlighted in the Soviet Union. I think it's even shown in 1949 movie Fall of Berlin. If you haven't seen this film, I highly recommend it. This movie was a gift to Stalin on his 70th birthday. Even as a child in the Soviet Union, I heard a lot about Elbe meeting. In a Cold War hit song "Do Russians want a war", there are words:

Dear Simon,

that great movie is still missing in my collection . I never found it as DVD or VHS. But I have the brilliant music score of Shostakovich on CD and also some small excerpts of that movie on documentary-DVDs .

O.K., you are right with the symbolic value of the "Elbe-Happening" .

"Elbe-Meeting" should have been a symbol of the military coopertion between the Soviet Union & USA AND a symbol of the projected extensive cooperation between the Soviet Union & USA in the field of economics (large US-investments in the CCCP!) and in the field of world politics (Roosevelt's UNO!).

As history told us, these spirited plans between Stalin & Roosevelt for a future world in peace and wealth had been brutally smashed by Churchill & Truman - the two - useless! - nuclear bombs on Japan marked a symbol and starting point of the new "Cold War" and Churchill's "Fulton-Speech" and the "Marshall-Plan" did the rest. The function of the UNO was soon very much restricted - or perverted (Korea-War!).

So, the spirit of the "Elbe-Meeting" converted very fast into the symbol of Western Allies treachery to the Soviet People .

That is the reason, why I think, that the including of the "Elbe-Coin" into that small collection might be an offense to some (educated) veterans.

Best regards

Christian

BTW: Do you know a source, where to get a "Fall of Berlin"-DVD with English or German subtitles ?

Edited January 16, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Christian Zulus]

CD with the music of the movie "Fall of Berlin"

[Guest RedThreat]

Dear, Christian:

BTW: Do you know a source, where to get a "Fall of Berlin"-DVD with English or German subtitles ?

It's not a bargain but you might want to take a look at this source. If you decide to buy it, make sure it is formatted for European DVD players.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00...=UTF8&s=dvd

Cheers,

Simon

Edited January 16, 2007 by RedThreat

[Christian Zulus]

Dear, Christian:

It's not a bargain but you might want to take a look at this source. If you decide to buy it, make sure it is formatted for European DVD players.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00...=UTF8&s=dvd

Cheers,

Simon

Dear Simon,

many thanks for the information .

They write it is suitable for PAL, so it should work in Europe. But they don't mention sub-titles .

The price tag with $ 40,- is really hughe. In my case - location Europe - I would have to add extra shipping & insurance costs PLUS about 30 % extra on the retail price for custom and VAT-tax .

I just found an offer from an German dealer for EUR 9,- :

http://www.petershop.com/de/catalogue/vide...ie-berlina.html and sent him a message, if the DVD is subtitled.

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

"Fall of Berlin" - no subtitles

Gentlemen,

I just got an e-mail from the German DVD-dealer, where he says, that ALL copies of the "Fall of Berlin" have NO subtitles .

Good for Russian speaking GMIC-members to obtain that DVD for only EUR 9,-, but bad for the rest .

Maybe some DVD-company can do the same great job, as ICESTORM did with the German version of "Osvobozhdenie" ("Die Befreiung", "The Liberation"), which had been edited on 5 DVDs + 1 Bonus-DVD with interviews + documents + a very well done comprehensive booklet with all informations about the making of the movie. This 6-DVD-box you can get now via AMAZON for about EUR 60,-, but only in German language, with neither Russian, nor English subtitles :

http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0007TFJDM...0989929-2725849

That is really an excellent and perfect done movie, which covers the GPW-history from Kursk to Berlin.

Best regards

Christian

Edited January 18, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Christophe]

"Fall of Berlin" - no subtitles

Gentlemen,

I just got an e-mail from the German DVD-dealer, where he says, that ALL copies of the "Fall of Berlin" have NO subtitles .

Good for Russian speaking GMIC-members to obtain that DVD for only EUR 9,-, but bad for the rest .

Maybe some DVD-company can do the same great job, as ICESTORM did with the German version of "Osvobozhdenie" ("Die Befreiung", "The Liberation"), which had been edited on 5 DVDs + 1 Bonus-DVD with interviews + documents + a very well done comprehensive booklet with all informations about the making of the movie. This 6-DVD-box you can get now via AMAZON for about EUR 60,-, but only in German language, with neither Russian, nor English subtitles :

http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0007TFJDM...0989929-2725849

That is really an excellent and perfect done movie, which covers the GPW-history from Kursk to Berlin.

Best regards

Christian

Christian,

I agree Die Befreiung is nicely made.

About the Fall of Berlin (1949), there existed a french version in the beginning of the 80's, on VHS at that time... I have never see it again in DVD.

Cheers.

Ch.