Saxon/Lippe ribbon bar

[Paul C]

I purchased this about a year and 1/2 ago in Germany. At the time there was no chance for a trace. Since then several new awards rolls are in the process of being published so I will post the bars and my notes from Rick. Any additional comments are appreciated.

Notes:

Saxon Merit Order with Swords (probably 2. klasse)

Saxon Honor Cross, or Saxon Long Service (tough call with this pix)

1914 EK2

Lippe Cross for War Merit with incorrect swords attached

(Possibly a Lippe Order with swords on war ribbon??)

Red Eagle (?) Possibly Hamburg Hanseatic?

Honor Cross, no Swords or 1870

Centennial Medal

Lippe House Order, Peacetime/Statute ribbon

Now, I think that IS a Red Eagle, which with the Lippe Order maybe be key to IDing this. Chances are that is an 1870 (with 1897) rather than a non-combatant Hindenburg Cross-- and what a Merit X and no Albert X suggests to me is

Classic Beamter since they generally did NOT receive an Albert first in the usual progression, but got a Merit Order first.

BUT... question remains whether this is a SV3bX (or SV3aX) and there WAS nothing else on the medal bar-- in which case TWO non-Saxon peacetime Orders but no Saxon peacetime seems odd orrrrrrrrrr as was very frequently done by the cheapo Saxons, swords were "added" to the SAME CLASS, making a peacetime SV3a/b AND a wartime SV3a/b ONE award rather than two.

I suspect that is what happened here, and this fellow simply got Xs added to his peacetime award. The Xs on the Lippe Detmold War Merit Cross are completely incorrect.

[Guest Rick Research]

The problem with the Lippe House Order ribbon is that it was SCHAUMBURG-Lippe as well as Lippe-DETMOLD. And while I have the entire Detmold roll (and have only started on it all yesterday)... the Schaumburg "rolls" are an insane mess of useless data-less garbage apparently scrambled by a cousin of the lunatic singlehandely responsible for making Meckjlenburg-Strelitz's rolls useless.

A MEDAL bar would present no problem, but one ribbon used on 14 different awards is not ever easy. I've got my own in a Baden bar that is almost certainly Schaumburg given the dynastic links. Saxony might be either Lippe.

This bar is undoubtedly that of some sort of military Beamter, since they generally started with the Verdienst Orden, skipping the "normal" progression which started with the Albert Order,

Beamten are being worked on, but not by me. All I'll be able to tell by the end of February is IF any such Saxon got any grade of the Lippe-DETMOLD House Order.

[Guest Rick Research]

Well, I had a "clever" thought and decided to check the roll for the 400 SV3aXs to see how many Saxons might have "promoted up" an Albert, leaving this behind with other awards off ribbon bar--

64 got an Albert Order-Officer X.

12 of those did NOT have a St Henry Knight.

NONE of those had a Red Eagle and anything Lippe as of December 1913. In fact, the sole zD type who DID have nothing but a Red Eagle non-Saxon was not an 1870 veteran, and would have been a real stretch for anything from Lippe (either one) in his Landwehr Bezirk job in 1914.

Ergo--

that is NOT a SV3aX, it is an SV3bX.

That being the case, it can't be a Red Eagle 4, it must be a Prussian General Decoration. So this guy would then have to be a 70 year old, possibly a retired Paymaster called back in for the war, or some sort of obscure "invisible" Beamten still at Oberleutnant-level.

Orrrrrrrr, that is not an 1870, it is a Hindenburg Cross, and the outfitter screwed up by putting the swords on the Lippe ribbon by mistake. It would still be an SV3bX (all the SV3aXs have been checked to Saxons) and a Prussian General Decoration, but now for a 40-something up from the ranks Oberleutnant-level Beamter during the war, in the 1930s.

I'd say this is a "2008" too, before more in this area will be knowable.

[Paul C]

Rick, Thanks for you insight and information. I will add it to my notes. One thing I am find is that tracing ribbon bars is much, much hard then medal bars!!!

[Solomon]

Quite a unsual ribbon-bar...

I think the outfitter made a mistake...the Lippe ribbon (merit cross) is the combatant-ribbon, I would expect a Hindenburg-cross with swords!

And there is another mistake...the ribbon for the HO Lippe is at a wrong place...normally it had to be placed after the merit cross (->statutes).

I?m sure it is the HO Lippe-Detmold...otherwise the merit-cross Schaumburg is missing ???

IMO it?s one of the bizarre awards of the HO Lippe after 1918, which can?t be found in the award rolls.

Maybe I?m wrong, but there were some awards untill 1939 (I allready showed a photo here on this board, which documented that).

Greetings

Solomon