EK 1939 1st Class Spange original?

[robert pierce]

Hi all,

Offered to me is this 1st Class Spange, unmarked, which I am not familiar with. Can someone please verify whether it is original or not from these photos provided by the seller?

Thank you,

Robert

[robert pierce]

reverse view...

[robert pierce]

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[robert pierce]

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[robert pierce]

Any opinions from anyone?

Robert

[DavidM]

Hello

I'm not sure about this one. I have examined and handled quite a few bars (spange) to the iron cross, (I am most definitely not an expert however), and I haven't seen one quite like this before - which of course doesn't necessarily make it a fake.

That said, what is making me uncertain is that the date numerals look like the ones found on the very rare so called 'intermediate' pattern bars, (the type that sits between the first and second pattern styles), yet the date trapezium is more angular than the 'intermediate style. The intermediate bars I have seen haven't exhibited the 'veining' to the wings that this appears to show, and which is seen on all first and second pattern bars. The only other none intermediate type bar I can find which has date numerals like these was given a universal 'thumbs down'.

However, that said, these aren't the best pictures inthe world. Can you ask the seller for some sharper, face on and closer in shots of the back and front - and one with the pin down. Hopefully some of the real bar experts will chime in and help out on this one.

[robert pierce]

David,

This is what I got in regards to photos when I asked for better shots. The first were four feet from the lens. He's selling quite a few collectibles at the moment, and is not necessarily the best photographer, nor does he care to be. His comment is that he got them all from a very well-known collector, and "that should be good enough for us."

I thank you for your input on this. At this time I feel it's not something I want to buy, simply because it is not something anybody is familiar with. I just wanted to run it by the eyes of the members here to see if I could get some comments. I agree it looks like a transitional spange, but really cannot find any known examples of it anywhere, not even in Gordon's book on the Iron Cross. I'm going to play it safe and pass, but keep the photos on file for down the road.

Thank you for your trouble. I appreciate the input, David.

Respects,

Robert

[PKeating]

"His comment is that he got them all from a very well-known collector, and 'that should be good enough for us.'"

And that attitude in response to reasonable questions should be enough to ring loud warning bells, if his attitude to providing good photos was not already enough. Can you imagine trying to get a refund from this individual should it turn out to be necessary? How much does he want for this cased Spange and from whose collection did it allegedly come? The asking price is sometimes quite revealing. Press him on the claimed provenance as well. As for the Spange, it's not a type I would be inclined to consider.

PK

Edited February 26, 2007 by PKeating

[DavidM]

Hello

As Proper has already said, run a mile from this one !! How many well known collectors have discovered that some of their collection is actually made up of fake pieces ? More than one. That aside, I wouldn't entertain dealing with anyone who exhibts that sort of attitude.

Is this a private sale or is it from a dealer ? If a dealer would you please let us know who it is so that they can be avoided in the future.

[robert pierce]

A Bob Rodgers owns this spange, a dealer with a dagger website. He has pulled every sales thread off of the WAF e-stand in the last 24 hours, which he ran this last week. I received a PM from a very reliable source warning me to run from this person - not because of his daggers, but because of this spange. I PMed Bob just now, and all I could get from him was a name of 'Brian', a well-known dealer at the MAX and SOS. Also the name 'maederer'. He bought quite a few items from him including this spange. He confessed he knows very little about TR badges, but felt very comfortable buying from this 'Brian', saying that he had 40 years in the business. I don't know the person, not being in that circle of people, so I can't say anything regarding Brian. But I'm looking for confirmation, another known example, and I'm not finding it. I respect people's opinions and their years of experience. But still that's nothing without proof of originality. That's why I joined this forum. I'm a novice in a lot of areas, but I know enough to listen to those who show me proof of originality. They're my teachers. And I thank you for your help on this one. I appreciate the warnings you have given.

We just talked on the phone. It's eveident Bob has little knowledge of TR badges. He's a dagger man. He's wanting to know what's wrong with the badge. I said another example like it has been impossible to locate. To him that's not enough to condemn it. End of conversation. I'm pulling out of this one.

Robert

Edited February 27, 2007 by robert pierce

[Guest Darrell]

Robert, Bob has asked for advice on items before and when people question them, he turns defensive and can get quite abusive. Not the type of person I'd buy anything from .....

[robert pierce]

Thanks Darrell,

It's really hard for someone who doesn't understand the position we take on originality. To them we seem almost fanatical in our quest for perfection. But that's what makes the hobby so enjoyable to me. I guess I love the contrast. I'd rather have the original. Original, or nothing! Let them keep making the fakes by the thousands, I'll be more determined to find the one original that's left to find.

Robert

[PKeating]

I can only endorse what Darrell just wrote. If I were you, Robert, I would disenage from that group of individuals and lose their contact details. Rodgers once threatened to commit suicide when someone insisted upon a refund. I kid you not. That way be demons...

PK

[robert pierce]

My goodness. Sounds very disturbed. Thank you for the sound advice. I'll heed to it. There was a sound of bitterness toward others when we talked on the phone. My 'radar' went up immediately.

Robert Pierce