1914 "Mons" Star

[Riley1965]

Gents,

Thank You for your help and information!!!

Doc

[Ed_Haynes]

Another reason for not having the bar to the 14 Star could be simply that he did'nt bother to apply for it after the war.

True, Leigh. I only know of maybe half a dozen 1914 Star groups to Indians that have the clasp, and know of three times that many groups to guys who were clasp-qualified but never got or wore it. Kind of like the fate of WWI death plaques to Indian regiments, where many were used as drink coasters in the (British) officers' mess, as it was too much trouble to send them to the families?

[leigh kitchen]

......... By the end of 2008, they plan to have "A" and "B" online (hope they don't pitch the originals after that..............

Hope not, but they did with MICs, though fortunately they were rescued by WFA I think it was.

It seems that there's written detail on the backs of some MICs, addresses to send medals to, that sort of thing, I would imagine that similar information would be lost forever if service records are turned in BBQ briquettes or hamster bedding.

[Alex K]

Hi 1914 star set.

Awarded to from right to left

1914 star & Bar to L9661 Pt E W Evans 1/E Surrey regiment

1914 star with dates to 9172 Pte W H Warner R.Irish Rifles

1914 star to 14594 Pte S Wootton North Staffs Regiment

not a great deal of research done yet but I'll get there eventually

regards

[Ed_Haynes]

Nice, Alex. What those who don't study these don't realise is that side-by-side, face-on, they may all look the same (like a gaggle of Iron Crosses). The difference here, of course, is that each is named, each is truly unique, and each one has a powerful tale to tell whcih, with research, can be teased out.

It is a shame, though, that it is so hard to get decent quality replacement ribbon. Not even possible for my ribbon guy in India to make anymore.

[Alex K]

Hi Ed, Thanks, your'e quite right of course, this is where British medals, early ones at any rate score over other countries, they were named which gives the opportunity to find out to some degree what these guys went through.

You're also quite right that replacement ribbons for these are not the best quality, the originals being "Watered", I do however have the originals to these medals, which are in quite a good condition. My "Thing" is to mount some medals in frames for display, and to make them look "Pretty" I tend to change the ribbons, just my personal preference

example attached

regards

Alex

[Ed_Haynes]

Just a few of mine, from soldiers otherwise forgotten and written out of history.

Right to left, first row

1- 3370 SOWAR LABH SINGH, 9/HORSE

WWI: 4 squadrons: 1-1/2 Sikhs (his), 1/2 Dogras, 1-1/2 Punjabi Muslims, 1/2 Pathans

In France and Flanders from November 1914 until February 1918, in the 3rd (Ambala) Cavalry Brigade, 1st Indian Cavalry Division. Notable mounted action at Cambrai. Mid/late-1918 sent to Egypt and Palestine, where they were part of Allenby's offensive. After the war, they remained on for "police work" in Syria. Back to Ambala 1 January 1921.

2- No. 2107 A. L. DFR. MASSU KHAN, 36/HORSE

To France with Lucknow Brigade. First action at Festurbert in January 1915; later in 2nd Ypres, the Somme, and Cambrai. Moved to Palestine in 4th Cavalry Division. Garrison dury in Syria and Palestine after the war. Back to India in 1921.

3- JEMDR. GULABA, 41/DOGRAS.

Son of Si, of Sipal, Hamirpur, Kangra, Punjab.

Enlisted 18 January 1893

Jemadar 8 April 1912

Indian Adjutant 1 July 1914

56 = musketry certificate

66 = course of transport instruction

War Services:

- N-W Frontier of India

-- Chitral 1895 - Relief of Chitral

CWGC: KIA 9 May 1915, NEUVE-CHAPELLE MEMORIAL, Panel 34

21st (Bareilly) Brigade, 7th (Meerut) Indian Division. WWI: 8 companies Dogras.

second row:

4- No. 1006 SEPOY JAGAT SINGH, 47/SIKHS.

8th (Jullundur) Brigade, 3rd (Lahore) Infantry Division. WWI: 8 companies Sikhs.

5- No. 2255 SEPOY JAI RAM, 38/DOGRAS.

Not in France as complete regiment, an "odd man".

6- No. 2428 RIFN. BUTHA SING NEGI, 1/39/GARHL. RIFS.

20th (Garhwal) Brigade, 7th (Meerut) Infantry Division. WWI: 8 companies Garhwalis.

7- 721 RESVT ARJAN SINGH, 20/HORSE

Reservist, an odd rank.

Son of Harnam Singh, of Chandanwal, Ludhiana, Punjab.

CWGC: KIA 21 Deceber 1914; NEUVE-CHAPELLE MEMORIAL, Panel 7

9th (Secunderabad) Cavalry Brigade, 2nd Indian Cavalry Division. Served in France and Palestine in WWI. First honors at Givenchy in 1914. Then to Palestine for service in the Jordan Valley. WWI: 1 squadron Sikhs (his), 1 of Jats, 2 of Deccani Muslims.

Edited April 15, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[Alex K]

Thats a pretty awsome colletion you have, its difficult to tell from the photo, but are the ribbons original watered silk or the later replacements? they do to me look like watered originals? Indian recipients is a long ignored field, when you consider that they formed a vital part of the overall strength of the British forces involved in the first and second world wars

[Ed_Haynes]

Some are original-original (very uncommon for medals to Indians, as most come to the market stark naked), some are original ribbon replacements (found a couple of period rolls in an old military tailor's in Rawalpindi -- replacing ribbons is more accepted among British collectors than among, say, the Germans, no need for mad-science intervention), and some (Labh Singh's) are nasty modern ribbon. As I mentioned above, the old ribbon making firms can't replicate the hand-woven silk quality of the shaded ribbons; that skill is gone.

Edited April 15, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[Tony]

I thought I'd add these 4 slightly different Stars:

The top one is a 14-15 Star and is technically off topic but they all deserve a mention - M2-033102 Pte. A Williams ASC

The one on the left is the standard 1914 Star without bar - SS-1220 Pte TE Peacock ASC (he wasn?t entitled)

On the right is the 14 Star with bar - 7468 Ptr. H Murrell 2/Royal Sussex Regt.

And the one in the book shows a 1914 Star without ?NOV? in the bottom scroll.

As the book was published in 1918 and the Star was approved in 1917, I?m wondering why Taprell Dorling didn?t have it altered (a printing time issue?). The book does state the Star was issued for service in Belgium or France between the dates of 5.8.14 and midnight 22-23.11.14; no bars issued.

I believe the bar was approved in 1919 or 1920.

Tony

[Alex K]

Hi Tony a question, you say that the medal on the left is to T E Peacock and that he wasn't entitled to it, If it is named on the back, I assume its either a rename or a blank named with him?

Secondly the picture in the book from Taprell Dorling without the Nov date may just be a printing thing. The 1983 version of their book "Ribbons and Medals" makes no reference to a star without the nov date and the only pictures shown are 1914 and 1914-15 stars with nov date

It makes me think that either they knew the basic shape of the star but were without for whatever reason full date details, since the time between approval and actually making and presenting the medal may have been considerable, or just that the Typesetter missed it off, IMO

regards

Alex

Edited April 17, 2007 by Alex K

[Tony]

Hi Tony a question, you say that the medal on the left is to T E Peacock and that he wasn't entitled to it, If it is named on the back, I assume its either a rename or a blank named with him?

Secondly the picture in the book from Taprell Dorling without the Nov date may just be a printing thing. The 1983 version of their book "Ribbons and Medals" makes no reference to a star without the nov date and the only pictures shown are 1914 and 1914-15 stars with nov date

It makes me think that either they knew the basic shape of the star but were without for whatever reason full date details, since the time between approval and actually making and presenting the medal may have been considerable, or just that the Typesetter missed it off, IMO

regards

Alex

Hello Alex,

The bar was only for those who were in reach of enemy fire between August and November. Private, later Sergeant Peacock, was an 'old army' tradesman (SS prefix) and may have spent the first months of his war repairing things way behind the line. Therefore, no entitlement to clasp/bar or roses.

The Aug. Star is pictured twice in the book, but as you say, it may just be a printing thing.

Tony

[leigh kitchen]

I've only just noticed - are'nt the ribbons on these Stars in the photos all the wrong way round?

Should'nt the blue of the navy take precedence over the red of the army & be to the left as viewed from the front?

Am I just imagining this after a heavy night on the Carlsburg, Notty Ash & Tyskie?

Edited May 1, 2007 by leigh kitchen

[Ed_Haynes]

I've only just noticed - are'nt the ribbons on these Stars in the photos all the wrong way round?

Should'nt the blue of the navy take precedence over the red of the army & be to the left as viewed from the front?

Am I just imagining this after a heavy night on the Carlsburg, Notty Ash & Tyskie?

Nope: Red shading into white shading into blue. (Red nearest the chest midline.)

[leigh kitchen]

Wonder where I got that from...........?

Better stick to the absinthe.

[Ed_Haynes]

Wonder where I got that from...........?

Better stick to the absinthe.

Actually, it is a good point. Usually, the blue (= navy) would come first (e.g. the 1939-45 Star). There are a few exceptions (this one, the first "India Ribbon", etc.).

Churchill, by the way, actually allowed the RAF to reverse the wearing of the 1939-45 (then 1939-43) Star. He got swatted down pretty quickly on that one!

[Riley1965]

Guys, I will have a partial re-unite!!! A member of the British forum contacted me. He found the WWI Victory Medal that belongs with my Mons Star. I can't wait until it gets here!!! The Mons Star came from Canada and the Victory medal was found in a "junk" shop in the UK.

Doc

[Kev in Deva]

Guys, I will have a partial re-unite!!! A member of the British forum contacted me. He found the WWI Victory Medal that belongs with my Mons Star. I can't wait until it gets here!!! The Mons Star came from Canada and the Victory medal was found in a "junk" shop in the UK.

Doc

Hallo Doc Congrats on the good luck in finding a missing Medal

Who is it named to? and is he due anymore medals?

Kevin in Deva

[Ed_Haynes]

Good news indeed! So two down, one (BWM) to go??

[Riley1965]

The medals are to Robert Cooper. There is a BWM still out there somewhere.

Doc

[Riley1965]

JUST IN...Mons Star re-united with WWI VICTORY Medal!!! Both properly named to:

T-22885

Driver R. Cooper

A.S.C.

WWI Victory Medal came on a new ribbon.

Doc

Edited June 8, 2007 by Riley1965

[Alex K]

JUST IN...Mons Star re-united with WWI VICTORY Medal!!! Both properly named to:

T-22885

Driver R. Cooper

A.S.C.

WWI Victory Medal came on a new ribbon.

Great news, It's nice to see that with endevour it is possible to re-unite pieces which may otherwise dissapear completely. If you think about it, the chances of re-uniting separated medals must be awesomely difficult. It's nice to see that it is actually possible, particularly after so many years when they may have been split up. Congrats.

Alex K

[Bison]

I got recently this 1914 Star, to Pte Albert L. Hill of the 2nd Battalion of the Border Regiment.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-2068-0-21005900-1416679357.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-2068-0-43106900-1416679379.jpg

I understand from his MIC that Private Albert L. Hill never picked up his bar ...

There is a mounting system which seems to me to be the one he wore in 1918 when the BWM and the Victory Medal were not awarded yet. Am I right ?

It is mentioned "Discl" on his MIC. Does that mean "Disclaimed"? Does this relates to the bar or to the BWM and the VM?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

Bison

Today, 22 November 2014 is the centenary of the end of the 1st battle of Yper!

Edited November 22, 2014 by Bison

[Tony]

According to his MIC the clasp was awarded/claimed for in 1922 and it's Disch. as in discharged.

His discharge came through 30/10/17 but it doesn't mention whether due to wounds of sickness.

Tony

[Bison]

Thank you very much Tony!

Then I was completely wrong.

Can we know on the MIC if he actually retrieved his clasp?

Kind regards

Bison