Yankee Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 Dear membersCan any member shed some light into the awards of the early Sword breast badges. I have seen a few of the early ones with crown directly fixed to the cross or straight bar across (below crown). I see that they were also issued with no crown at all. Was it a special class only given to ROYALTY. Thanks a bunchSincerelyYankee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 I know that the types with the crown fixed to a straight bar (connected to the 2 points of the upper cross arm) are early ones.However, I have never seen the order without the crown. Are you sure about that? Any picture?/Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 18, 2007 Author Share Posted April 18, 2007 I know that the types with the crown fixed to a straight bar (connected to the 2 points of the upper cross arm) are early ones.However, I have never seen the order without the crown. Are you sure about that? Any picture?/MikeHi MikeYes, I'm fairly certain. I was amazed to see a picture of a early medal bar that belonged to a Czar. In the bar was a Sword without crown, did notice the crowns between the arms were extremely wide perhaps a privately made piece. Unfortunately I do not have the picture, I saw it on ebay a three series Russian book with English translations of the orders before 1917. In Saint Petersburg I missed a special exhibit on the Imperial Orders by a few months, was able to catch the Imperial Guard uniforms etc etc at the officer barracks at the Winter Palace, many of the czars uniforms were on display but the decorations were not there ouchhhhh Ahhh timing is everything surely that bar would have been on display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 19, 2007 Author Share Posted April 19, 2007 Mike ebay 170101052198 Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 (edited) I have been looking through the internet-auction,and have posted the image here, before the auction shuts and the image vanishes!Here it is.The upper-bar, Alexander I, indeed shows something which appears to be the swedish order of the sword, without the crown...Might be possible that the tsar himself ordered to have the crown removed, as wit would fit better in his bar with all the awards straight on 1 line?? But his bar is already a mess! Thus this would be a bit too much of a guess....The lower bar, Nicolai I, also has the militairy order of William, from the Netherlands.... Wonderfull!! It's the 4th class, I thought that royalty always received the grandcross, but perhaps only a 4th class to wear when the grandcross wouldn't be worn??Kind regards,Jacky Edited April 19, 2007 by Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 (edited) I took the liberty to add the picture below.Added: And Jacky just beat me to it I must say that I have no explanation. I have never seen this 'modification' before and I suspect it was a privately made version. Maybe he wanted all the orders to have the same size on the bar? There are some strange (official) versions of the Order of the Sword, like the 'Krigskorset' ('War cross'). Imagine the normal badge of the Order of the Sword, leave the top crown, remove the crowns between the cross arms and stick a single sword through the badge (from 6 o'clock, through the center medallion so that the tip of the sword touches the top crown).I don't have a picture of this version (only a drawing).But still... I have never seen a normal badge with the top crown removed before./Mike Edited April 19, 2007 by Great Dane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Hi Mike,I have also taken the liberty to add an image of the book,having the decorations on a straight line sounded very plausible to me, but then.. The last medal was ignoring this thought.......So now I'm wondering again.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimj Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 I think this is a case of the Czar can do what he feels like and museum curators too. What I mean is that in the pic I have posted Alexander is wearing his bar with the top of all crosses covered. Maybe the crown on the order of the Sword made the ribbons look wrinkled. Solution: remove the crown. Later some ambitious museum curator wanted it to look nice. So he restored it with what he had available...Notice also on the pic that the czar is wearing the rare Swedish sign of the grand cross, the sword looking thingy below the other awards. Here are some nice links on the subject:http://arnell.cc/http://www.ordersandmedals.net//Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 19, 2007 Author Share Posted April 19, 2007 I have been looking through the internet-auction,and have posted the image here, before the auction shuts and the image vanishes!Here it is.The upper-bar, Alexander I, indeed shows something which appears to be the swedish order of the sword, without the crown...Might be possible that the tsar himself ordered to have the crown removed, as wit would fit better in his bar with all the awards straight on 1 line?? But his bar is already a mess! Thus this would be a bit too much of a guess....The lower bar, Nicolai I, also has the militairy order of William, from the Netherlands.... Wonderfull!! It's the 4th class, I thought that royalty always received the grandcross, but perhaps only a 4th class to wear when the grandcross wouldn't be worn??Kind regards,JackyHi JackyThe Dutch MWO that Nicholas l is wearing must be a 3rd class for the badge is made in gold and enamel however the ribbon lacks the rosette as you correctly remind me of, on an earlier bar. Perhaps it just fell apart over time and the ribbons were replaced.SincerelyYankee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 19, 2007 Author Share Posted April 19, 2007 Looking at the ribbon ring, fairly certain to say the Sword that Czar Alexander l is wearing was never issued with a crown, the ring is just too clean, matches the other ribbon rings. Other possibilities, it was awarded without crown to foreigners only at that early time or perhaps it was the Russian jewelers interpretation of the order since it was recently founded ( breast badge ) & had no official print of the design. I'm sure the jeweler had other means to make the bar uniform without having to remove the crown. The Austrian 1813/14 gold army cross is absolutely beautiful Is the other medal on the far right Prussian? What a beautiful Allied BarSincerelyYankee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 (edited) Looking at the ribbon ring, fairly certain to say the Sword that Czar Alexander l is wearing was never issued with a crown, the ring is just too clean, matches the other ribbon rings. Other possibilities, it was awarded without crown to foreigners only at that early time...Hmm... I don't think so. I have never encountered any information which would indicate that...Furthermore, notice that it's not only the crown that has been removed but also the crossed swords beneath it. These swords being an essential part of the order's 'identity'.... or perhaps it was the Russian jewelers interpretation of the order since it was recently founded ( breast badge ) & had no official print of the design. I'm sure the jeweler had other means to make the bar uniform without having to remove the crown.I think it was removed on purpose for aesthetic reasons. The suspension is practically identical on the other orders on that bar, so maybe the jeweller modified all of them according to the wearer's wishes.The Austrian 1813/14 gold army cross is absolutely beautiful Is the other medal on the far right Prussian? What a beautiful Allied BarCouldn't agree more P.S:On the website that Kim linked to, there is another one without the top crown (see below), but clearly that one had its crown removed in a not too pretty way.../Mike Edited April 19, 2007 by Great Dane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 19, 2007 Author Share Posted April 19, 2007 Hmm... I don't think so. I have never encountered any information which would indicate that...Furthermore, notice that it's not only the crown that has been removed but also the crossed swords beneath it. These swords being an essential part of the order's 'identity'.I think it was removed on purpose for aesthetic reasons. The suspension is practically identical on the other orders on that bar, so maybe the jeweller modified all of them according to the wearer's wishes.Couldn't agree more P.S:On the website that Kim linked to, there is another one without the top crown (see below), but clearly that one had its crown removed in a not too pretty way.../MikeHi againI do agree with you that the bar was created for aesthetic purposes however the crown was never intended to be placed on this Sword knight for the other two orders ribbon rings are identical. Good observation, did not notice the lack of crossed swords. Again I think if it had orginally been made with swords we would see signs of the removal on the enamel cross since the early issue sword badges had their swords directly on the cross itself not above. I'm afraid this one might remain a mystery If there is another identical badge out there, please postSincerelyBrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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