Kriegsmarine Frontspange

[nesredep]

I do not know the date of the photo, but this young man certainly was not photographed in 1957. My guess, since it seems to have a German photographer on the bottom right as you view the photo, is that it was taken either prior to mid-Jan 1946 while the ship was still in Wilhelmshaven and prior to sailing to the US, or, soon after this sailor returned to Germany. In either case, 1946. If the photograph was taken in the US for some reason and had a German sounding photographer, still 1946.

The uniform, youth of the sailor, the wearing of the tally and the frontspange all indicate to me, without a doubt, that it was taken in 1946.

I can only offer my opinion that the frontspange (not medal) was made aboard Prinz Eugen or in the yards at Wilhelmshaven in 1946.

It does appear to match your man's frontspange and from that I can only conclude that yours too was made soon after the war ended. I can't explain the stamps on the reverse though. Highly unlikely the badge was made during Nov 1944 when instituted, but, it could be a later stamp pre-dated for the date of entitlement or award institution.

Personally, I have no problem with your frontspange. If you like it too, that is all you need.

John

Hello

John Robinson

I like my Frontspange.

Nesredep

[John R]

Hello

John Robinson

I like my Frontspange.

Nesredep

Then this thread has a happy ending. John

[nesredep]

Then this thread has a happy ending. John

Hello

John Robinson

I like my KM Frontspange from the beginning , but I think it is important with a discussion , so all facts come up. If

I find news i will post them on this thread.

Best Regards

Nesredep

[nesredep]

Hello!

How many Frontspange were made , and how many People recived it ?.

Nesredep

[Thobau]

Dear John,

Thank you very much for posting the great pictures of the "Prinz Eugen" Crewman with the PE cap tally. I never saw a post war crewmen picture before. I would love to see also some pictures of the corresponding cap tally in your collection? Was it manufactured in metal-thread or woolen, similar to other KM-tally?s?

According to Fregattenkapit?n Paul Schmalenbach, officer on PE all the war time, for all 574 remaining crew members this cap tally was organised to further strengthen the comradeship of the crew even after the war.

Thank you very much in advance.

Thorsten

[John R]

Dear John,

Thank you very much for posting the great pictures of the "Prinz Eugen" Crewman with the PE cap tally. I never saw a post war crewmen picture before. I would love to see also some pictures of the corresponding cap tally in your collection? Was it manufactured in metal-thread or woolen, similar to other KM-tally?s?

According to Fregattenkapit?n Paul Schmalenbach, officer on PE all the war time, for all 574 remaining crew members this cap tally was organised to further strengthen the comradeship of the crew even after the war.

Thank you very much in advance.

Thorsten

All known examples are cellon, which is synthetic cotton used after cotton was no longer used. Gold wire (metal) was a private purchase but again, no known examples exist.

Mine attached, I believe very strongly that it is the same one as in the photo since they came together from the same sailor. I know of at about 5 others in collections in Germany. There must be more of course. I also know with certaintly that PE sailors gave their muetzenbander to US sailors who were learning from them how to sail the cruiser on the trip over to the States. Sort of a farewell friendship gift. Perhaps the PE sailors had more than one, I do not know.

To me, it is amazing that the US crew was able to do this since the steam plant was unlike anything in the US Navy, but then again, PE broke down a number of times including on the trip over. High pressure plants were difficult to operate to begin with and naturally the German crew was used to it.

Well, somehow it made it to the Pacific where it now rests. I am quite sure the US crew was glad to say goodbye.

John

Edited August 20, 2007 by John Robinson

[Thobau]

Great - thanks a lot John!

Do you think this examples worn in 1945/46 could be the ones produced before the war in 1938/39 for the Schiffsstamm (training crew) and just reused? Given they have been produced before the war what A.Schlicht/J.R.Angolia are saying in their book Uniforms Kriegsmarine. This could be according to the known practice to issue such M?tzenb?nder for crews in trainig before the ship was going to see, hole 1939 was for example used for training the Rollen (positions/duties of sailors at the ship) and mechanics.

To my knowlege, the first cellon bands were already issued in 1936.

Is the back making of your M?tzenband the same kind as the usual KM ones? I would love to see a back picture too.

Thanks a lot.

Thorsten

[nesredep]

Hi

If anyone has Frontspange,please lets see them.

Kind regards

Nesredep

[John R]

Thorsten,

It is impossible at this time to know when the Prinz Eugen muetzenbander were made, but I doubt if they made them on special order after the war just to wear across the Atlantic to the US. It is possible of course, like anything. I have seen "joke" muetzenbander made, maybe the name of the Captain or sailor on the muetzenband, misspelled muetzenbander are very common too.

My personal feeling is that since the ship was commissioned on 1 August 1940, the muetzenbander were made before 1 Sept 1939 date when the named muetzenbander were supposed to be changed to "kriegsmarine". As we know, the named ones were used for quite some time after the start of the war on many ships, organizations and U-boats. This was especially true of the Narvik destroyers and U-boats, but they all finally switched over to "kriegsmarine" in due time.

Another example is Blucher, commissioned 20 Sep 1939 and the crew was wearing this tally when this ship went down 9 April 1940. Same with Graf Spee of course, at sea when the war started. On the other hand, no examples of Bismarck or Tirpitz but it is my theory that Bismarck had the muetzenbander aboard when she went down. The reason is that she was commissioned on 24 August 1940 but was long in building, the keel layed on 1 July 1936. Plenty of time for these muetzenbander to have been part of the long shipbuilding checklist and just stored aboard. Again, only a theory since none have ever been seen in photos or elsewhere.

There are also statements that photos exist of sailors wearing the muetzenband "Tirpitz" in a special ceremony, but I have not seen such examples but again, anything is possible. I do not think it was hard for the makers of these muetzenbander to quickly produce anything needed if required.

You asked for front and back PE images. Attached. All PE muetzenbander are cellon as far as is known from existing examples.

In addition, you asked if I had anything else from Prinz Eugen. Yes, a shoe-cleaning box with a lockable lid so that they could be attached to the outside of the kitbag. This was a gift to a US sailor from his German counterpart on the trip to the US.

John

Edited August 29, 2007 by John Robinson

[John R]

Is the back making of your M?tzenband the same kind as the usual KM ones? I would love to see a back picture too.

Thanks a lot.

Thorsten

The only material used to make a muetzenband was cotton, cellon, or gold wire. So you have a possiblility of three but in the case of Prinz Eugen, only cellon has been found.

I forgot, this Matrosen-Stabsgefreiter rank sleeve insignia was inside the shoe-cleaning box when I bought it.

John

Edited August 29, 2007 by John Robinson

[nesredep]

Hi

Any opinions or comments.

Kind regards

Nesredep

[nesredep]

Hello!

Any news? Comments and new Photos.Thanks for help.

All the best

Nesredep