Megan Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 OK, Ed, I have read the 3 threads you recommended and the relevant page on Yuri's site and now I'm even more confused than usual!Do we have 3 different orders, or one that keeps having radical changes of name & design?How ought I to present it in a logical yet accurate manner on my site? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 (edited) Oh, Megan. Not easy. But what is when it comes to Mongolian awards?!Part of the problem is the sloppy and imprecise translations we are stuck with.These are the same award, but with different names in different eras. More a matter of heritage and inheritance than anything else?Very very roughly:ORDER OF LITERACY VALOR (1926-31) - A 25 -- Type 1.1 (no star at top, 3 maker?s mark, unnumbered ? is this variety marked ?I?, ?II?, ?III? by class? ? ever issued?)-- Type 1.2 (no star at top, МОНДВОР mintmark, serial number No ? is this variety marked ?I?, ?II?, ?III? by class? ? ever issued?) - Low = ??/High = ?? -- Type 1.3 (no star at top, МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark, serial number No ? is this variety marked ?I?, ?II?, ?III? by class? ? ever issued?) - Low = ??/High = ?? -- Type 2.1 (larger star at top, three maker?s marks, unnumbered) -- Type 2.2 (larger star at top, МОНДВОР, numbered No) - Low = 240/High = 260 -- Type 3 (as the Order of Civil Valor but with smaller star at top) - Low = ??/High = 165 1931-40ORDER OF CIVIL VALOR (1931-45) - A 26-- Type 4.1 (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; SN at 6 o'clock) - Low = 138/High = 2325-- Type 4.2 (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; SN at 12 o?clockt) - Low = 1837/High = 2335 ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF LABOUR VALOR (1945--) - A 27 & A 28 -- Type 1 (Screwback, ~ 4000 awarded) - Low = 83/High = 3913 (A 27, 1945-70)-- Type 2.1 (Pinback, silver) - Low = 4029/High = 7020 (A 28, 1970--)-- Type 2.2 (pinback bronze ? to date, not awarded, so numbered specimens probably fraudulent) - Low = 9050/High = 9060-- Type 2.3 (pinback bronze, not numbered, unawarded escapee?) Edited May 8, 2007 by Ed_Haynes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megan Posted May 8, 2007 Author Share Posted May 8, 2007 So probably best as a single page showing how names & designs have changed with time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 So probably best as a single page showing how names & designs have changed with time?Yeah, I think so. It is, essentially, the same order, at least the same social and phaleristic niche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megan Posted May 9, 2007 Author Share Posted May 9, 2007 Well I have put up my first attempt at this... comments/corrections/additions welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 (edited) Well I have put up my first attempt at this... comments/corrections/additions welcome!At first glance, it looks good, but I suspect, for your purposes, some of the typology can be collapsed. Let me ponder.The direct link: http://www.medals.org.uk/mongolia/mongolia007.htm Edited May 9, 2007 by Ed_Haynes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megan Posted May 10, 2007 Author Share Posted May 10, 2007 Thank you.What comes next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Thank you.What comes next?Next?My advice would be, first, to do some reordering and fix some names in their common English nomenclature. Just taking the first few, you have:Hero of the Mongolian People's Republic Hero of Labour of the Mongolian People's Republic Honorary Freeman of the Mongolian People's Republic Order of Sukhbaatar Order of Military Merit Order of the Red Banner of Military Valour Order of the Red Banner of Labour Valour Order of the Polar Star Order of Mother Heroine Medal for Combat Merit Honour Medal of Labour Medal of Chalkin Gol Medal for UnselfishnessWhereas it should be:Hero of the Mongolian People's Republic Hero of Labour of the Mongolian People's Republic Honorary Freeman of the Mongolian People's Republic Badge of Cosmonaut of Mongolia (which you may show further down under some very odd name)State Prize (including Choibalsan Prize) (which you may show further down under some very odd name)Badge of the Title "People's" (which you may show further down under some very odd name)The Title of MeritD. Natsadorj Literary PrizeGolden Star of the Marshal of MongoliaSukhbaatar Order Order of the Red Banner of Military Valour Order of the Red Banner of Labour Valour Order of Combat Valor (name wrong and out of order) Order of the Polar Star Order of Mother Heroine Honorary Medal of CombatHonorary Medal of Labour Medal for UnselfishnessMedal of Khalkin GolWhether you want to bother with things like the Order of the Vajra and the Order of Chengis Khan is another question.Unless you want to go back and fill in the prizes, the Mother Heroine Stuff would be next? It will be easy enough to do!Will check again on the order of the stuff after the Khankin Gol medal/badge. I assume there is no need to dip down into the badges and include very early things like the Partisan Badge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megan Posted May 10, 2007 Author Share Posted May 10, 2007 All I want is to get it right, she says plaintively!I'll take a look at your suggestion for a revised sequence when I get home tonight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 For better or worse, and it does have some problems, I guess we need to stick with Battushig's book, and fix those errors that he himself has identified. He will be sending me an eratta sheet when I remember to nag him that he promised one specially drawn up for posting on this forum. I have urged Bat also, for the next edition, to ignore what we foreigners normally call the awards (e.g. the Order of the Polar Star) and substitute correct translations from the Mongolian names (Order of the Golden Pole) and to give the names in Mongolian.The problems that have gotten into our usage and our understanding -- like poison in the well -- from earlier flawed sources need to be erradicated lest they proliferate. It seems to be easier to learn new things that to unlearn wrong things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megan Posted May 10, 2007 Author Share Posted May 10, 2007 Well, as a starting point we have what has already been published, and then we need to correct & improve on that. Sparrows on the shoulders of giants or whatever! So 'Order of the Polar Star' isn't the right name for the beast? So after 'Order of Combat Valour' goes ? 'Order of the Golden Pole'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Well, as a starting point we have what has already been published, and then we need to correct & improve on that. Sparrows on the shoulders of giants or whatever! So 'Order of the Polar Star' isn't the right name for the beast? So after 'Order of Combat Valour' goes ? 'Order of the Golden Pole'?Sparrows dropping our . . . whatever . . . onto those giants' (that giant's) shoulders? (Not sure I'll share THAT image with Bat!)For the time being, I'd stick with the names Battushig has used. Right or wrong. There will be a long and flat learning curve and much kvetching when we undertake a serious rectification of the names.So . . . . . . Order of the Red Banner of Labour Valour Order of Combat ValorOrder of the Polar Star Order of Mother Heroine Honorary Medal of CombatHonorary Medal of Labour . . . Some of the translations may not be the best, but they are habituated in English. The only one that Battushig realls wants us to drop is the "Order of the Precious Rod" and go with the Order of the Vajra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 To finish cleaning the list:Medal for the Victory Over Japan Medal for the 25th Anniversary of the Mongolian People's Revolution Medal for the 40th Anniversary of the Mongolian People's Revolution Medal of Friendship Medal for the 30th Anniversary of Victory at Chalkin Gol Medal for the 50th Anniversary of the Mongolian People's Revolution Medal for the 50th Anniversary of the Mongolian People's Army Medal for the 50th Anniversary of State Security of the Mongolian People's Republic Medal for the 50th Anniversary of the Militia of the Mongolian People's Republic Medal for the 30th Anniversary of the Victory Over Japan Medal for the 40th Anniversary of Victory at Chalkin Gol Medal Glory of the Virgin Lands Medal for the 60th Anniversary of the Mongolian People's Revolution Medal of Brotherhood in Arms Medal for the 50th Anniversary of Victory at Chalkin Gol Medal for a Meritorious Functionary of the Mongolian People's Republic Medal of the State Prize of the Mongolian People's Republic Medal for Teachers of the Young Generation Medal for Cosmonauts of the Mongolian People's RepublicMaybe, instead:Medal "We Won"Medal "20 Years of Khalkin Gol"Medal "25th Anniversary of the Mongolian People's Republic"Medal "40th Anniversary of the Mongolian People's Republic" Medal "30th Anniversary of Victory at Khalkin Gol" Medal "50 Years of the Mongolian People's Revolution" Medal "50 Years of the Mongolian People's Army" Medal "50 Years of State Security of the Mongolian People's Republic" Medal "50 Years of the Police of the Mongolian People's Republic" Medal "50 Years of the Mongolian People's Republic"Medal "30th Anniversary of the Victory over Militaristic Japan" Medal "40th Years of the Victory at Khalkin Gol" Medal "60 Years of the Mongolian People's Revolution"Medal "60 Years of the Armed Forces of the MPR"Medal "50 Years of Khalkin Gol"Medal "70 Years of the Mongolian People's Revolution" Medal "80 Years of the Mongolian People's Republic"Medal "Glory of the Virgin Land Cultivators" (moved)Medal of Friendship (moved)Medal of Brotherhood in Arms Medal for the 50th Anniversary of Victory at Chalkin Gol Medal for a Meritorious Functionary of the Mongolian People's Republic Medal of the State Prize of the Mongolian People's Republic Medal for Teachers of the Young Generation (huh?!)Medal for Cosmonauts of the Mongolian People's Republic Beyond that, there are the "badges" (though I am less that secure about this distinction). Some may deserve inclusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megan Posted May 10, 2007 Author Share Posted May 10, 2007 List amended as suggested, but we've had an... ahem... more social evening tonight so that will be it for now! Thanks for the help, I'll be back for more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 List amended as suggested, but we've had an... ahem... more social evening tonight so that will be it for now! Thanks for the help, I'll be back for more...Social evenings are always good!And always here to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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