Unit ID on a Wolseley helmet

[Stuart Bates]

Can anyone identify the unit to which this Wolseley helmet belonged?

Thanks,

Stuart

[leigh kitchen]

Just a guess - white & blue - Royal Signals?

[Stuart Bates]

Hi Leigh,

it can't be just a guess so what information do you have?

My Royal Corps of Signals has a flash of light blue, dark blue and green. I have a nice little book entitled "Headdress, Badges and Embellishments of the Royal Corps of Signals", it's a pity that there doesn't seem to be such books for other units.

Stuart

[Ed_Haynes]

Some place, I have such information for the Indian Army, but buried deep. Let me dig. But, being Indian Army, there may not be much interest?

[Stuart Bates]

Ed,

there is a lot of interest in the Indian Army, rest assured. I am currently editing and proof reading an upcoming book on the sun helmets of the army. Good luck with your digging.

Stuart

[leigh kitchen]

Hi Leigh,

it can't be just a guess so what information do you have?

My Royal Corps of Signals has a flash of light blue, dark blue and green. I have a nice little book entitled "Headdress, Badges and Embellishments of the Royal Corps of Signals", it's a pity that there doesn't seem to be such books for other units.

Stuart

I'm just thinking of the colours for signallers signal flags (& qualification badge representing the flags & armbands - blue & white.

Other than that a cavalry or yeomanry unit suggests itself to me for some reason.

[Stuart Bates]

Leigh,

going through my signallers book I came across a statement that in foreign service stations 1920-1924, Officers and soldiers wore a 2 or 3" square patch of white and blue on the left side of the "sola topi". It doesn't say whether it was a light or dark blue. This patch was changed to green, dark blue and light blue arranged horizontally in 1924 and then changed again to a vertical arrangement in 1934 as shown in my RCS Wolseley already posted here.

It also says that in 1937 piping was introduced which consisted of the Corps colours running around the top of the puggaree - light blue top, dark blue centre and green at the bottom. It does add that piping was taken into use by some Signals units in India prior to the official introduction, so who knows what colours were used.

A blue and white armlet was used during the period 1920-1939 and I have a photo which shows them being worn and I would say they are white over light blue.

This all seems to indicate that my helmet could be an unofficial variation of a Royal Signals but it's only an assumption at the moment.

Let's hope some more information comes to light.

Stuart

Edited May 15, 2007 by Stuart Bates

[Stuart Bates]

I haven't received the helmet yet but the seller, a friend in London, informs me that it has the look and feel of a Great War example. If so this takes out the Signals who introduced the stripes in 1937.

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

Well I have received the helmet and on the inside is an inked name of S. Pellett which I looked up on the National Archives. I received one hit for an Ernest S. Pellett of the East Surrey Regiment.

Can anybody verify that this was the regiment for the helmet?

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

I saw the same piping on a Wolseley on a dealer site www.jcmilitaria.com where it is described as being attributed to the 7th Batallion Royal West Kent Regiment and has the name Harwin and number 27569 to the interior.

I checked the archives and found a Rufus H. Harwin number G/27589 so I will check with the dealer to see if he misread the number which seems most likely. The regiment is indeed the Royal West Kent.

I also rechecked Pellett, the name in my helmet, and came up with 3 for the Royal West Kent but none with an initial of S. I suppose he could have transferred at a later date.

BTW: what does the G at the start of the service number mean?

Stuart

[leigh kitchen]

"G" was used as a pre-fix by some WWI infantry units, I'd been under the impression that it was used, as I'd read, only by some New Army enlistments in Home Counties regiments.

Howard Williamson states this in volume 1 of "The Collector & Researchers Guide To The Great War" but elsewhere in that book lists it as being used by some other regiments as well: the Royal Irish Rifles, Royal Irish Fusiliers, 11th Bn Liverpool Regt, & the Manchester Regt.

Perhaps these the men with these "G" pre-fixes are transferees from Home Counties regiments who have kept their old number?

He shows G-24919 as an example to the 7th Royal West Kents & G-27107 to the Kent Cyclist Battalion.

[Graham Stewart]

The general opinion on the pre-fix 'G/' within regimental numbers is that it stands for "General Service" to define between Regulars, Special Reserve, Territorials and New Army enlistments. It's more often associated with Home Counties Regiments although examples are found within some regiments, but not on the same scale. At a later date some Home Counties infantry units e.g. the Royal Fusiliers took to using the letter 'L/', which is believed to be 'London District'.

There's currently a major study being undertaken regarding pre-1920's regimental numbering in which I'm involved, which will probably take around a year to come together with conclusions, but what's hampering a lot of the research is the disappearance of many Regimental Nominal Roll Books and Orders referring to the subject.

Graham.

[Stuart Bates]

Leigh & Graham,

thanks for the information. You are both goldmines! And I hope that the regimental numbering project is successful.

Stuart

[The Saint]

Stuart,

I may have the answer (picture taken at the Buffs Regimental Museum, Canterbury) :

Eric

Edited February 29, 2008 by The Saint

[Stuart Bates]

Eric,

this has put a spanner in the works. I was quite happy with the Royal West Kent

Ron Kidd, in the Formation Sign magazine of the Military Heraldry Society of July-Sept 2001, states that the 2nd Battalion East Kent's had a square scarlet patch with a curved title of either "Buff's" or "The Buff's" which was worn on the LHS. He does not mention piping at all and does cite the Museum in Cantebury as his source.

I will try to get an answer from Ron Kidd and another contact.

I must say that the embroidered BUFFS does not look to be period, it is far too plain.

Stuart

Edited February 29, 2008 by Stuart Bates

[Stuart Bates]

Looking at the embroidered lettering on the museum's helmet flash I would say that it is a repro. The B has serifs whereas the UFFS is sans serif. This does not mean the helmet is not the BUFFS.

Has anyone good enough colour vision to say whether the top colour on each helmet is -

white

faded buff (yellow)

faded light blue

?

This would identify the helmet as either RWK or BUFFS.

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

OK! A friend, who is not colour-blind, has confirmed that the piping is buff (pale yellow) over dark blue thereby making the helmet to the Buffs. We gently peeled back each fold and all was revealed.

Stuart

Edited March 10, 2008 by Stuart Bates

[zipperheads9]

Stuart it is the east kents then? It is Brittish? The Canadian Corps of Signals also used similar color , but am unsure of use on trimmed in that fashion.

Nice piece

The buffs one had the patch pinned on .

Mark

[Stuart Bates]

Hi Mark,

the helmet has been positively identified as being to the East Kents (Buffs) which was the old 3rd Regiment of Foot in the British Army. I have verified this with an expert in the UK, one in the US and the Buffs museum has an example.

I am still suspicious of the flash on the museum example but without actually touching it cannot be dogmatic.

I have two Signals Corps Wolseleys each having the light blue/dark blue/dark green flash but in earlier times they had a white/light blue flash and I think piping.

Stuart

Edited April 23, 2008 by Stuart Bates