Rising Sun 7th cl enamel question

[SWE Erik]

I have noticed that sometimes the rising sun orders have a different colour on the stems under the flowers.

Most of the orders has been in the old type boxes.

Do anyone know if this is an old variation of the orders or if you can find them from all time periods?

I'll attach a picture of one below. This one was sold in a box of the showa type. Would this be the wrong type for this order?

/Erik

[Paul L Murphy]

It is difficult to say, the changes in enamel colour do not see to be time consistent. Having said that, the bow lapel pin with this is Meiji period, in Showa it was the round lapel pin, and at first glance the order does look more like the colours you would expect to see more often on a Meiji piece.

I hope this helps.

Paul

[SWE Erik]

It helps alot, thank You.

A detail I have read about on another forum is that if the leaves veins almost touches the border of the medal.

(It looks like it on this example) Then this would mean that it is a Meiji era order. Do You think this is one way to date 7th classes?

/Erik

[Laurence Strong]

Here is the obverse of mine for comparison.

[SWE Erik]

I made a picture of both side by side with the differenses marked.

Do You know the timeperiod of Your order?

I would guess showa.

/Erik

[Laurence Strong]

From the style of the inscription on the case, I would have to say pre Aug 45 Showa as after that IIRC they colored only the obverse of the award.

[Laurence Strong]

Both sides of the medal

[Laurence Strong]

Here is a photo I just took. it's better than the scan.

[Paul L Murphy]

Lawrences award is a Showa piece. You will also notice that the purple enamel is different in tone, this is what I p[reviously went on but your point about the veins of the leaf appears to be correct. I had not noticed this before.

Cheers,

Paul

[SWE Erik]

Mondays are good days.

Here are a few new pictures of the Rising Sun order that came today.

It has an unusual hook that I havn't seen before. The enamel is nice and shiftes in colour. It has some pores and the surface isn't entirely even.

/Erik

[Tim B]

After reading this thread I have started to note the differences between the veins more and more on these awards.

As I still see some sets for sale that seem to be made up of different era pieces, am I to assume these sets are made up to sell, or were they actually awarded using these pieces?

I assume for Meiji era awards, the button lapel device was always a ribbon bow, while the Showa era awards used the round rosette device. What about the Tashio era? Was there a different device used, or a transition period using leftover stock from Meiji period and eventually using the rosette?

I also notice this with the cases. We know (shown in other threads) what the Meiji era characters look like and what the Showa era looked like, but is there a different style for the Tashio period? The same question above concerning the lapel device also applies to the case.

I ask as I have two cases (both Order of the Rising Sun 8th Classes) that are similar but not the same. One (right) is clearly Meiji period; the case lettering, medal with the longer veins, and the ribbon bow all denote Meiji period, but the other (left) has slightly different lettering (clearly not Showa period) and closely resembles Meiji in style, but...the medal has the shorter veins and a round rosette lapel device.

So, is it just a case (no pun intended) variation from a different maker? Or, is this possibly an example of a Tashio era award?

I'm just learning, so be paitient.

Tim

[Paul L Murphy]

Tim,

The case on the right is earlier. I have asked some very experienced dealers in Japan about this issue over the years but nobody is able to say what is late Meiji versus what is Taisho. Regarding the veins on the leaf, frm what I have checked in terms of known groups where the award can be dated, basically the longer the fourth vein on the leaf the earlier the striking.

Regards,

Paul

[SWE Erik]

As I still see some sets for sale that seem to be made up of different era pieces, am I to assume these sets are made up to sell, or were they actually awarded using these pieces?

I assume for Meiji era awards, the button lapel device was always a ribbon bow, while the Showa era awards used the round rosette device. What about the Tashio era? Was there a different device used, or a transition period using leftover stock from Meiji period and eventually using the rosette?

Tim

I think It would be possible that they used up old stock over time. I can't see why they wouldn't. I have a mounted group from the showa era with what looks like an early Rising Sun 8th cl. The wear is consistent and everything looks right so I still think it belongs to the group. But since I don't have any documents I could be wrong.

There is a third type of rosette that has a pleated round ribbon. Maybe a type used betwen Meji and Showa, or just a variation of the showa type??

/Erik

[Paul L Murphy]

Erik,

The pleated round rosettes are for higher classes of the order, not a time related variation. Also my understanding of the way the mint worked is that they tended to make roughly the amount they needed to issue, rather than hold stock. Hence, if you get a Meiji style case with a Showa style medal it is probably put together for sale. The only way to be certain is to get groups with the documents (but even then you can never be 100% sure).

Best regards,

Paul

[SWE Erik]

Erik,

The pleated round rosettes are for higher classes of the order, not a time related variation. Also my understanding of the way the mint worked is that they tended to make roughly the amount they needed to issue, rather than hold stock. Hence, if you get a Meiji style case with a Showa style medal it is probably put together for sale. The only way to be certain is to get groups with the documents (but even then you can never be 100% sure).

Best regards,

Paul

Would a Meiji type of the Order of the Rising Sun be a sign that my Showa era medalbar is a put together then?

I have searched through my picture archive and found a few different pleated rosettes.

This is the type that I was talking about above and that I sometimes see with sacred treasures of various classes.

This one is with a Rising Sun 2nd cl

Here is the last kind of rosette I can think of and it is for a late Sacred Treasure 3rd cl.

When You say that It is for Higher classes were You actually talking about the last rosette type that I have now posted? Or is the first one without the rectangular base also for high classes? I also forgot about the Rising Sun 2nd rosette that is pleated too.

Thanks for all the help.

/Erik

[Tim B]

Paul,

Thanks for that and all the help via emails lately! Thought I better start asking my questions here and increasing the number of my posts so I can eventually get the benefits of regular membership, like increased PIC sizes.

I kind of figured that one of these just might be a put together, but wanted to see if anyone had seen something that had a Tashio provenance that matched.

I also noticed that the vein differences also apply to the other award levels and not just the 8th class. I have seen the longer veins on as high as a 3rd class as well. I noted that appeared to be an earlier sunburst design with the shorter rays.

Two more questions concerning the 6th class and higher awards: First, is it correct that the earlier Meiji/Tashio awards had the shorter rays (on the sunburst) and longer veins (on the leaves), while the Showa pieces have the longer rays and shorter veins? In all cases?

Second, the one Rising Sun 6th class that I currently own has a pretty flat red meatball in the center. I notice some that appear to be more domed shape in pictures. Did that change or are they all flat and it is just a lighting effect?

Thanks again,

Tim

[Tim B]

Erik,

I tend to agree it would make sense to use up any old or existing stock if available. I was kind of surprised to read Paul's comment about the lack of any supply stock on these, so...?

On the lapel devices; the pleated comment Paul made (and Paul can correct me if I screw this up) refers to the pleats in the center of the rosette on the Showa era pieces and the way they tied the ribbon in a circular pattern (vice bow-tie) on the earlier Meiji/Tashio devices.

I will try to post a couple examples a little later that may be of help.

Tim

Edited August 10, 2007 by Tim B

[Tim B]

Erik,

I'm still learning and will try to answer your question if I can. I will use three examples of items I have saved PICS to, not necessarily my stuff here, but think it will help. If not, I am sure Paul will correct me and we both will learn!

Here is a Order of the Sacred Treasure (6th Class) and you can see both the medal and lapel device are both Meiji style. It came in a Meiji era case as well. So, IMO, all original to each other. Note how the lapel device is circular. Now, how to tell the differences between a 6th and higher award lapel device is beyond me at this point.

Tim

[Tim B]

Next, we see another Sacred Treasure, this time a 3rd Class. The medal and lapel device (rosette in this case) are Showa period and this also came in a Showa era case. Again, IMO, all original to each other. Note the "pleats" to the center fabric. I believe these pleats were on 5th class awards and higher for Showa period and just the little "strips" of material on the lower awards.

Tim

[Tim B]

The last example is yet another Sacred Treasure, this time a 5th Class award. IMO, this is a Meiji era medal and a Showa period rosette. It came in a Meiji era case, so IMO, the rosette is probably not original to the set, but added as a replacement. As the rosette is not pleated, I assume (correct me if I am wrong Paul) that the rosette is actually for a 6th class award, but again, I am still learning too.

I show this only to kind of clear up the differences between the pleated and stripped rosette centers.

Tim

[Tim B]

Hope that helped and didn't screw it up too bad.

Here's another close-up of the medal in post #20. IMO, it's a Meiji design as the mirror looks more pointed than Showa pieces, and it was listed as Meiji. Just hard to tell I guess without actually handling several firsthand and seeing the differences.

Tim

[Paul L Murphy]

Tim,

You are a fast learner, well done

Regarding the rosettes, the type you show with your fifth class award is indeed a 6th class rosette. For the Showa (and later) lapel rosettes basically the class is shown as follows : -

8th class - unpleated and three lines radiating from the centre

7th class - unpleated and four lines radiating from the centre

6th class - unpleated and six lines radiating from the centre

5th class - unpleated and eight lines radiating from the centre

4th class - pleated, normally with eight pleats

3rd class - as 4th but with a silver strip of bullion cloth behind the rosette (same as the French do)

3nd class - as 3rd but the strip is half silver half gilt

1st class - as 2nd but strip is gilt.

I am not sure when they introduced the bullion strips for the higher class, and they do not seem to have been consistent in use. The earlier rosettes used more complicated pleating but it actually gets difficult to determine the different classes (which is probably why they changed).

In terms of stock of medals for awards, it is less an issue with the Sacred Treasure where awards are more spread but you need to remember that for the Rising Sun there were massive numbers awarded in 1906 for the Russo Japanese War and again in April 1940 for the China Incident. There were also large bestowals for the 1914-20 campaign and Manchurian Incident in 1934 but the previous two dwarf everything else. Hence, most medals would have been made to order for the bestowals rather than a stock of millions being held all the time.

Regards,

Paul

[Tim B]

Thanks for the reassurance and compliments, I had a good teacher!

...and to think my wife said, all I was, was just another pretty face.

Tim

[Laurence Strong]

Hope that helped and didn't screw it up too bad.

Here's another close-up of the medal in post #20. IMO, it's a Meiji design as the mirror looks more pointed than Showa pieces, and it was listed as Meiji. Just hard to tell I guess without actually handling several firsthand and seeing the differences.

Tim

I was under the impression that rivets on the back were Meiji and no rivets was Showa?

[Tim B]

Laurence,

What I understand is that the pieces with the rivets were both Meiji/Tashio and Showa period, but there are some differences in the spacing of these. If memory serves me correctly, the earlier ones were spaced closer to center and wider on later pieces. I think there is a post here at GMIC that discusses the rivets and alignment to the cuts in the medal.

The ones without the rivets were post-WWII; from roughly 1946 to the 70's or 80's.

Tim