Australians at War

[Tiger-pie]

I know, I know, some of these are back a bit further than what this thread is supposed to cover, but I couldn't see the point of doing a timeline without including them.

Regards;

Johnsy

Australian Conflict Time Line

1885- Sudan:

770 New South Welshmen with nine killed and three wounded.

1899-1902-Boer War:

16,463 Australians served with 606 killed and 538 wounded.

1900-1901-Boxer Rebellion:

560 Australians served with six killed.

1914-1918-World War One:

300,000 Australians served with 61,720 killed and 156,000 wounded.

1939-1945-World War Two:

993,000 Australians served with 39,366 killed and 66,553 wounded.

1948-1960-Malayan Emergency:

7000 Australians served with 36 killed and 20 wounded.

1950-1953-Korean War:

17,164 Australians served with 339 killed and 1216 wounded.

1962-1973-Vietnam War:

49,968 Australians served with 520 killed and 2398 wounded.

1963-1966-Indonesian Confrontation:

3500 Australians served with 15 killed and nine wounded.

1956-ongoing-Israel:

Currently 12 ADF members deployed.

1982-1986 and

1993-ongoing-Sinai:

Currently 25 ADF members deployed.

1990-1991-Gulf War

1991-1999-Cambodia

1992-ongoing-Yugoslavia:

Currently 8 ADF members deployed.

1992-1994-Somalia

1994-1996-Rwanda

1994-2002-Mozambique

1994 and 1997-2003-Bougainville

1999-Kosovo

1999-ongoing-Timor-Leste:

Currently 480 ADF members deployed.

2000-2002 and 2003-ongoing-Solomon Islands:

Currently 140 ADF members deployed.

2001-2003-Sierra Leone

2001-ongoing-Afghanistan:

Currently 480 ADF members deployed with one killed.

2003-ongoing-Iraq:

Currently 1450 ADF members deployed with one killed.

2005-ongoing-Sudan:

Currently 15 members deployed.

2006-ongoing-Border Protection:

Operation Resolute which includes;

Southern Ocean ? Operation Mistral

Northern Australia and Sea Air Approaches ? Operation Cranberry

Australian border protection ? Operation Relex II

No time line for this operation, currently 2 Army officers deployed to Eritrea and Ethiopia ? Operation Pomelo

Edited June 20, 2007 by Tiger-pie

[bigjarofwasps]

TP, so as not to take your Afgan topic to far off its thread. I thought I`d reply here. My ignorance seems to know no bounds, I really had no idea, you guys are & have been so heavily committed. I`d be very interested to know what was happening in the Soloman Islands. It also looks like things in the Sudan aren`t going to well either!!! But going back to Iraq, I seem to remember reading about one of your helicopter pilots winning a DFC, over there in about 2004 I think, maybe you can shine some more light on that one for us.

[Tiger-pie]

AN AUSTRALIAN army officer is to be awarded Britain's Distinguished Flying Cross for his bravery in taking control of a British helicopter while under heavy fire in Iraq.

Major Scott Watkins, of Baulkham Hills, in Sydney, was on secondment to the famed British Black Watch regiment south of Baghdad last November when the helicopter he was co-piloting came under machine-gun fire from the ground.

At least three rounds struck the Lynx helicopter, one of the bullets ripping into the cockpit and hitting the pilot, Captain Keith Reesby.

Watkins, a captain at the time, took the controls and flew the helicopter through heavy fire for six minutes to get back to base.

Later he modestly dismissed his swift action as just doing his duty, but the Black Watch commander said he saved the life of his crew.

Watkins, 34, said his helicopter flew into the path of bullets aimed at a Puma helicopter that was flying ahead of them.

"I thought the bullets had come through the floor," he said. "What had actually happened was that we were banking hard to the right and they had come through the window. My gunner saw two guys in a trench firing up from 100 to 200 metres away.

"It was extraordinarily unlucky. We have Kevlar seats and Kevlar protection at the sides. There is a five-centimetre gap between and that is what one of the bullets went through."

Two more bullets damaged instruments, making flying hard as Watkins weaved and dodged rocket-propelled grenades fired from the ground.

"We fly low to avoid giving people on the ground too much time to prepare an attack," he said. "But I'm afraid there are so many people on the ground with guns that something like this will happen."

The wounded Black Watch pilot was a close friend of Watkins. A bullet passed through Captain Reesby's arm into his chest, narrowly missing his heart, but the helicopter's swift return to base saved him.

The Chief of the Army, Lieutenant-General Peter Leahy, yesterday congratulated Watkins on the award, which will be presented soon.

Watkins had proved himself to be a cool and courageous pilot, General Leahy said.

The Royal Air Force award is the third-highest British military award for bravery. It is rare for it to be given to an army officer.

Watkins' wife, Karen, was four months pregnant at the time. She was at a British army base in Germany with their 2?-year-old daughter, Brienna, as her husband was in the last six months of a two-year secondment to the Black Watch.

Watkins returned to Sydney with his family in January, but could not be reached yesterday as he was on exercise.

[Tiger-pie]

Operation Anode - Solomons Islands is a stabilisation operation to restore law and order and political stability. The ARA has been helping the Australian Federal and S.I. Police quell anti-government violence. Honiara, the capital, was virtually reduced to ashes.

Picture #1: Soldiers wait to be airlifted to S.I.

Edited August 11, 2007 by Tiger-pie

[Tiger-pie]

#2 A soldier on patrol passing a building with anti-government graffiti on it's walls.

[Tiger-pie]

#3 A combined ARA and AFP check point.

[Tiger-pie]

#4 A soldier talks to local police.

[Tiger-pie]

#5 A soldier from 1 Section, 10 Platoon, D Company peers down the main road of Honiara. The effects of the rioting can be clearly seen.

[Tiger-pie]

#6 From the same section, a Private surveys the damage in Chinatown, Honiara.

[bigjarofwasps]

Cheers TP, theres some cracking photographs there, did you take them? The Soloman Islands campaign sounds like a very interesting tour to say the least!!!

Going back to the DFC guy, an interesting twist in the tale in the article I read it stated that because he wasn`t a UK national, his DFC would be worn after his Aussie medals, and that he wasn`t allowed to have the post letters DFC after his name. But looking at his photo, he seems to be wearing his DFC ribbon first. I`d be interested to know if the ruling has been changed, and whether he`s since be allowed to use DFC, and or which order his ribbon should be worn. Any ideas? I seem to remember reading the article in Soldier Magazine, I`ll see if I can find it again, and get back to you.

Gordon.

[bigjarofwasps]

TP, have looked threw old soldier mags, can`t find it, so it might well have been in Medal News. I`ll keep looking, but its the priverbial needle in a haystack!!!

[bigjarofwasps]

TP, found it!!! I know I`d read it somewhere!!!!!

Medal News November 2005 (Operational Honours List 25, released on the 9th Sept).

Page 8 an article in News & Reviews, its a lengthy article, so I won`t be typing it out here in full, however, I quote...

"Watkins is the first time a DFC has been awarded to an Austrialian, as a foreign award rather than an Imperial award. Watkins will wear his DFC at the end of his medal group along with any other foreign awards, but will not be able to use the post nominal letters"

Medal News is well known for its mistakes, so this maybe duff gen. Just open their Medal Year book, and you`ll find any number of mistakes, in there, but lets no go there right now.

I`d very much like to hear from anyone who can confirm or deny their claim in this article.

[Tiger-pie]

The order of wear is correct, he can wear the DFC ahead of his Australian awards, but if he was to receive any Australian Gallantry or Bravery award wether it is higher or lower than the DFC then that medal would be worn in front of the Imperial DFC. It is basically splitting the medal precedence into two levels, if that makes sense. Any lower grade of medal would have to come after our own medals. What needs to be taken into account here is that they are not really a "foreign" award as such, Imperial awards are still represented of our table of wear. Indeed, when I was in Canberra I worked with a Commander (Navy pilot) who was still wearing his DSC, so there is still a need for this "duplicity". Watkins isn't the only Australian in this position, an Naval officer I know has the MVO. Again this is exactly the same situation as Watkins, if he was to be awarded any Australian medal of a similar class, then the MVO would be placed behind that medal, but not behind all other Australian awards of a lower grade.

Watkins award is the first of its type since the Vietnam war.

Regards;

Johnsy

Edited August 11, 2007 by Tiger-pie

[bigjarofwasps]

Hi TP, well that clears that up, and makes perfect sense to!! But what about his use of DFC after his name is this allowed or not? Seems a bit of a shame if he`s not allowed to use it.

Going slightly for a minute. What would happen say if say Pte Jones of the Austrialian Medical Corps won a British VC, then a few years later won the Austrialian VC, would he have two seperate VC`s or the British one with Aussie bar, or visa versa?

[Tiger-pie]

Hi TP, well that clears that up, and makes perfect sense to!! But what about his use of DFC after his name is this allowed or not? Seems a bit of a shame if he`s not allowed to use it.

Going slightly for a minute. What would happen say if say Pte Jones of the Austrialian Medical Corps won a British VC, then a few years later won the Austrialian VC, would he have two seperate VC`s or the British one with Aussie bar, or visa versa?

Errrh...

Well I can only speculate on this one, but as it essentially has the same criteria for qualification, I would imagine that the Victoria Cross for Australia would take higher precedence as the rules currently state. It would however make more sense that the original award would be retained with the name and date of when first act of valour took place regardless of which country awarded it. The bar would then be awarded by the respective government.

He definately would not be able to wear two VC ribands, there is no Gallantry or Bravery medal in the British or Commonwealth system that can be awarded twice or more as individually worn medals.

I can't confirm that the post-nominials can or can't be used by Major Watkins. In the Army News (paper) though he is never refered to as Watkins DFC.

Regards;

Johnsy

Edited August 12, 2007 by Tiger-pie

[bigjarofwasps]

TP, I also suppose the chances of winning two VC`s, anyway are pretty slim....???

Re the DFC, I guess the fact that the Army press don`t print DFC after his name, sort of confirms it? Which I think is a bit of a swizz really, don`t you?

[Tiger-pie]

TP, I also suppose the chances of winning two VC`s, anyway are pretty slim....???

Re the DFC, I guess the fact that the Army press don`t print DFC after his name, sort of confirms it? Which I think is a bit of a swizz really, don`t you?

Only three people ever got a second VC, so no, the chances are slim though not impossible. There are probably many acts of valour that went without reward.

Two Aussies came close, that was Albert Jacka VC, MC and Bar.

C.E.W. Bean wrote: "Everyone who knows the facts, knows that Jacka earned the Victoria Cross three times'. And after the war "It is not for an historian to say but in the case of Albert Jacka something clearly went wrong. Albert Jacka should have been the most decorated soldier in the AIF." According to Jacka's biographer, Dr. Ian Grant: "Ironically, although Jacka clearly went on to perform greater deeds of valour, his superiors were determined ... [to] deny... him further recognition." This was due to his outspoken nature and his "unforgivable offence" of criticising his superior officers, hence breaching the "code of freemasonry" which protected senior officers of the regular army. As a result, Elliot (Major General) said:

"General Birdwood ordered that Jacka's report should be expunged from the records of the AIF and Jacka himself was thence onward systematically ignored both in regard to decorations and promotions." Jacka finished the war at the rank of Captain.

And "Mad Harry" Murray. VC, CMG, DSO and Bar, DCM, MiD (4), CdeG.

He was known admiringly throughout the AIF as 'Mad Harry' because of his fearlessness in patrols in No-Mans-Land and his ferocity in hand-to-hand fighting. Murray was far from 'mad'. He planned attacks and trained his men with great care and always sought to avoid casualties.

He was recommended for a second VC at Stormy Trench, north-east of Gueudecourt, France on 4/5 February 1917.

Captain Murray led his company to the assault and quickly captured an enemy position. Very heavy fighting followed, and three times counter-attacks were beaten back owing to this officer's wonderful work. During the night the company suffered heavy casualties and on one occasion gave ground, but Captain Murray saved the situation, encouraging his men, leading bayonet charges and carrying the wounded to places of safety. The recommendation for the VC noted that "his Company would follow him anywhere and die for him to a man". He finished the war as an Lt. Col. and served in a training capacity during WW2. He remains Australia's most decorated soldier.

There was some ill feeling back in Australia after the war that because these two men had risen through the ranks rather than been commisioned officers with the right connections, as well as the fact that they were "Colonials", they were denied a second VC. Both were outstanding combat officers who cared about their men, and reducing casualities through sound tactical doctrine i.e. fighting smarter. Albert Jacka put forward a report on the use of troops supporting armour that was later described as "brilliant" (and may have been used illicitly by General John Monash in preparation for the successful Battle of Hamel), but due to his earlier indiscretions he was given no credit for his efforts.

[bigjarofwasps]

TP,

Very interesting stories!!!!!!

But your right it is all politics at the end of the day. But didn`t an Aussie win two VC`s in WW2? I know the other two double VC`s were RAMC doctors from the Boer War/ WW1. What was the name of the AIF guy who won the VC at Gallipoli, taking the trench and killing 7 Turks single handley?

Theres also that guy from the Lonr Range Desert Group who won 3 DSO`s that it was claimed should have been VC`s.

Beharry`s VC is also subject to debate (I believe). Not sure of the circumstances for the last VC to be honest, socan`t comment on that one.

Goin` off topic again, what the ribbon on your avatar?

[Tiger-pie]

TP,

But didn`t an Aussie win two VC`s in WW2? Shhhh, the bloody Kiwis might hear you. They would go mad in Un-Zud if they heard you say that., he was a New Zealander.

What was the name of the AIF guy who won the VC at Gallipoli, taking the trench and killing 7 Turks single handley? Lance Corporal A lbert Jacka.

Goin` off topic again, what the ribbon on your avatar? Check this thread out. http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=18524

Regards;

Johnsy

[bigjarofwasps]

TP,

But didn`t an Aussie win two VC`s in WW2? Shhhh, the bloody Kiwis might hear you. They would go mad in Un-Zud if they heard you say that., he was a New Zealander.

Johnsy

Johnsy......

Gordon.