Austria-Hungary Some Austrian ribbon bars - opinions sought

[Richarddwh]

I recently acquired these two ribbon bars. Unfortunately the first has the pin missing on the reverse, I was wondering whether the combination was correct, and wondered whether it was possible to collect so many Franz Josef ribbons on one bar.

[Richarddwh]

This second ribbon bar has an add attachment system to the reverse.

[hunyadi]

I would look for additional opinions on these as I am not an expert on what happened after Austria was absorbed into the Reich. The first four ribbons in the first post are 'war ribbons'. These can be for Bravery Medals, FJ Awards, Iron Crown, Signum Laudis, etc... so there is no way to know for certain what went there. What bothers me a bit is the EK2 ribbon before the Wound Ribbon (1 wound) Then the WW1 Cross of Honor w Swords and then the Czech Medal. The combinsation seems a bit odd. If it were pre 1938, then I would suspect the EK would not be before the AH Wound Medal, but this is after 1938 and the EK should then take precidence over the War Ribbons (?) The second one looks OK to me, but these have been turning up faked lately (with these odd hangers that you find on Imperial German medal bars for holding the suspension rings of the medals. The Austrio-Hungarian bars that I have seen and experienced here never seemed to have used these devices in any way as medals were of the tri-fold type and mounded on the medal bars in a differnt manner.) I would inspect these with a black-light if you have them.

[Richarddwh]

Is it possible that the EK would be considered foreign, as a Prussian award, and therefore the bravery medals would take precedence over them?

[hunyadi]

Yes - but this is a post 1938 ribbon bar so the German awards would be first not last - also even if this was a pre 1938 bar the EK2 would be after the Wound Medal which was an Austrio-Hungarian award. Also the lack of an Austrian WW1 Commemorative medal and the Hungarian WW1 Commemorative Medal it makes it more suspicious. Just my thoughts.

[Kev in Deva]

The black clip in the picture post 2, is normaly, found sewn to some tape on a ribbon bar, the medal then being clipped in and the medal ribbon mounted and sewn into place around it, thus hiding the medal clip.

However the Austrians used many methods and types of fixings for their ribbons, please see attached pictures:

So we cannot discount it, in itself as being unusual.

Kevin in Deva.

[Guest Rick Research]

I see no problems with either bar-- though it would not have been pleasant if the first guy was WEARING it when it took that WHOMP that bent it and broke the pin!

The 1914 EK should be first after 1938, but that sort of thing doesn't concern me unduly. We have seen a number of bars with awards from the 1st Republic that the Nazis had BANNED still being worn so

I suspect that the late clip-on ribbon bars were worn by veterans who were still wearing their full size awards on trifolds-- thus making use of BOTH sets on the same horizontal uniform "strings."

I've never seen a Third Reich uniform with old Hapsburg style horizontal awards strings, but then Austria doesn't seem to have been "souvenired" as thoroughly as the Old Reich. I have seen some photos of ribbon bars (one posted in the Ribbon Bar Article "In Wear Gallery") from the former Dual Monarchy being worn ON pockets-- on the PLEATS -- during the Second War, so VERY strange things did happen under the old double eagle.

Absence of any swords at all on the generic bravery ribbons suggests that both of these were ex-enlisted men's bars. Four IS a lot-- that would either be the complete set GOLD, Large Silver, Small Silver, Bronze Bravery Medals, or three with an Iron Merit Cross.

[saschaw]

Absence of any swords at all on the generic bravery ribbons suggests that both of these were ex-enlisted men's bars. Four IS a lot-- that would either be the complete set GOLD, Large Silver, Small Silver, Bronze Bravery Medals, or three with an Iron Merit Cross.

No problem at all, because it is no Iron Cross and cannot be. It's a Prussian Kriegerverdienstmedaille, and these were never worn on 1st place. Austrian (and other foreign) NCOs got no Iron Crosses ...

[hunyadi]

No problem at all, because it is no Iron Cross and cannot be. It's a Prussian Kriegerverdienstmedaille, and these were never worn on 1st place. Austrian (and other foreign) NCOs got no Iron Crosses ...

That makes more sense...had forgotten about that little one...

[Richarddwh]

Thanks for the responses, though very good point about Prussian medal. I feel Hunyadi had a good point about expecting to see the Austrian WW1 Commemorative medal and the Hungarian WW1 Commemorative Medal also present. That could possibly depend on whether a veteran could be bothered to add those on, a nice newly acquired 1938 October 1 medal however, would be a must have addition.

[Guest Rick Research]

Don't forget:

not all "Austrians" in 1918 were...

AUSTRIAN in 1938.

I have NEVER seen awards of the former Hapsburg successor nations BEFORE 1938 to

Sudetenlanders who were living in CZECHOSLAVAKIA until annexation.

Of course, by the time THEY were "German"-- there was no "Austria" to award that medal. And first priority would have been getting the Newly German awards... not Hungarian stuff. (I've seen Real Germans still getting Hungarian WW1 Commemoratives well into ... WW2 )

Also, when looking at things like Anschluss medals and so on, don't forget that Austrian Nazis murdered Chancellor Engelbert Dollfuss in an abortive coup in 1934... and were subsequently Persona Non Grata with the 1st Republic just when that medal was being bestowed. Hence no Austrian WW1 Commemoratives for them-- especially if they were in jail "earning" their woefully inappropriate post-1938 2nd model "Blood Orders" instead.

Lots of reasons for "Austrians" to NOT have the pre-1938 non-German WW1 commemoratives.

[Lukasz Gaszewski]

Absence of any swords at all on the generic bravery ribbons suggests that both of these were ex-enlisted men's bars. Four IS a lot-- that would either be the complete set GOLD, Large Silver, Small Silver, Bronze Bravery Medals, or three with an Iron Merit Cross.

It is possible that the wearer was promoted from the ranks in the course of war. In such a case the first ribbon can have been of the Signum Laudis (w. the swords missing - notice the hole), while the remaining three of the Bravery Medals and/or Crosses of Merit.

Lukasz

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes, possible. Thgough since the Austrians used the identical ribbon for everything and the same X device on most of those, there's no real way to tell what any awards are on a ribbon bar like this. That could have been one of the Verdienst Crosses too-- Iron, Silver, or Gold.

[saschaw]

It is possible that the wearer was promoted from the ranks in the course of war.

As far as I know, an Austrian NCO could NOT become an officer - or am I wrong?!

[Guest Rick Research]

But of course-- any officer candidate had passed THROUGH NCO ranks before being commissioned.

[saschaw]

But of course-- any officer candidate had passed THROUGH NCO ranks before being commissioned.

Yeaaaaah, I knew I forgot something ... but these were the only ones, correct? An elderly NCO couldn't, e.g. not for bravery as a German could ...