China Chia-Ho Order ?

[lilo]

Hello All,

I would like to ask your help to exactly identify the Chinese Orders Given to some High ranking British Generals for the WW1.

In particular on the London Gazette of 17 FEBRUARY, 1920, I found the following entries :

the KING has given unrestricted permission to wear the Decorations and medals conferred by his excellency the president of the Republic of China:

Order of Chia-Ho.

1st Class.

"Ta-Shou Pao-Kuang"

To Field-Marshal Douglas, Earl Haig

Order of Chia-Ho.

2nd Class.

"Ta-Shou"

to General Sir John Steven Cowans

Order of Chia-Ho.

1st Class.

To General Sir William Robert Robertson,

My question are :

1) What means the word "Chia-Ho" ?

2) What means the word "Ta-Shou Pao-Kuang" ?

3) What means the word "Ta-Shou" ?

4) It appears that the Order in question is an unic Order named ?Chia-Ho?. What then is the difference between the Chia-Ho Order followed by the words "Ta-Shou Pao-Kuang" or "Ta-Shou" or with nothing as in the case of General Robertson ?

Awaiting to hear from you

Best Regards

Lilo

Edited October 29, 2007 by lilo

[adam]

"Chia-Ho" is the name of "Order of the Golden Grain",in speaking chinese.

"Ta-Shou"is the meaning of Sash of the order in 1-st class or 2-nd class.In China,1-st and 2-nd class orders both have sash.And the 2-nd class order divided in two different class "with sash"and "without sash".The 2-nd class order set "with sash":a sash badge+star;the 2-nd class order set "without sash":just a star.

"Pao-Kuang" is the name of "Order of the Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain",also in speaking chinese.

[lilo]

Hello Adam,

First of all I would like to thank you for your prompt and very informative answer.

I apologise in advance but need of some more specific answers as following :

1)

I know that the Order of the 'Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain' and the Order of the 'Golden Grain' -although have similar names - are completely different Orders : Is this correct ?

If yes and if I well understood what you have written above and confronting it to what is written in the London Gazette, Field Marshal Douglas Haig received exactly the Order of the 'Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain' and, instead, General Sir William Robert Robertson received exactly the Order of the 'Golden Grain' : Am I correct ??

2)

Am I correct that the words 'Excellent Crop' were exclusively used to indentify the Order of the 'Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain' and NOT also the Order of the 'Golden Grain' ?

3)

Moreover a friend collector (of which I don't remember the name) told me that were used 2 types of ribbons for the 'Golden Grain' order :

"The original issue colours of the Golden Grain ribbon, 100mm wide, was yellow with red borders (1st type). This was changed in 1916 to yellow with 16mm white border (2nd type)".

Is this correct ?

4)

Last, I have always understood that either the 1st type of ribbon or the 2nd type (each for the correct period of issue) were adopted contemporaneously for both the 1st and 2nd classes.

In other words I mean that, taking as example the 2nd type ribbon (that yellow with 16mm white border), it was used for both the 1st and 2nd class.

Am I correct ??

I greatly appreciate if you can help me further and Hope that you can do so (If not my search will go to a dead end).

Awaiting to hear from you again

Best Regards

Lilo

Edited October 29, 2007 by lilo

[Hugh]

Hello Adam,

First of all I would like to thank you for your prompt and very informative answer.

I apologise in advance but need of some more specific answers as following :

1)

I know that the Order of the 'Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain' and the Order of the 'Golden Grain' -although have similar names - are completely different Orders : Is this correct ?

If yes and if I well understood what you have written above and confronting it to what is written in the London Gazette, Field Marshal Douglas Haig received exactly the Order of the 'Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain' and, instead, General Sir William Robert Robertson received exactly the Order of the 'Golden Grain' : Am I correct ??

2)

Am I correct that the words 'Excellent Crop' were exclusively used to indentify the Order of the 'Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain' and NOT also the Order of the 'Golden Grain' ?

3)

Moreover a friend collector (of which I don't remember the name) told me that were used 2 types of ribbons for the 'Golden Grain' order :

"The original issue colours of the Golden Grain ribbon, 100mm wide, was yellow with red borders (1st type). This was changed in 1916 to yellow with 16mm white border (2nd type)".

Is this correct ?

4)

Last, I have always understood that either the 1st type of ribbon or the 2nd type (each for the correct period of issue) were adopted contemporaneously for both the 1st and 2nd classes.

In other words I mean that, taking as example the 2nd type ribbon (that yellow with 16mm white border), it was used for both the 1st and 2nd class.

Am I correct ??

I greatly appreciate if you can help me further and Hope that you can do so (If not my search will go to a dead end).

Awaiting to hear from you again

Best Regards

Lilo

I've sent of an enquiry to the Armed Forces Museum in Taipei. Let's see what they say.

[lilo]

I've sent of an enquiry to the Armed Forces Museum in Taipei. Let's see what they say.

Hello Hugh,

thank you

All the best

Lilo

[Richard LaTondre]

Hello All,

I would like to ask your help to exactly identify the Chinese Orders Given to some High ranking British Generals for the WW1.

In particular on the London Gazette of 17 FEBRUARY, 1920, I found the following entries :

the KING has given unrestricted permission to wear the Decorations and medals conferred by his excellency the president of the Republic of China:

Order of Chia-Ho.

1st Class.

"Ta-Shou Pao-Kuang"

To Field-Marshal Douglas, Earl Haig

Order of Chia-Ho.

2nd Class.

"Ta-Shou"

to General Sir John Steven Cowans

Order of Chia-Ho.

1st Class.

To General Sir William Robert Robertson,

My question are :

1) What means the word "Chia-Ho" ?

2) What means the word "Ta-Shou Pao-Kuang" ?

3) What means the word "Ta-Shou" ?

4) It appears that the Order in question is an unic Order named 'Chia-Ho'. What then is the difference between the Chia-Ho Order followed by the words "Ta-Shou Pao-Kuang" or "Ta-Shou" or with nothing as in the case of General Robertson ?

Awaiting to hear from you

Best Regards

Lilo

[Richard LaTondre]

The Order of the Golden Grain (Chiaho) was instituted on 29 July 1912 by President Yuan Shikai for outstanding civil or military achievement. This Order became obsolete and was replaced by the Order of the Brilliant Jade in 1929, by order of President Chiang KaiShek. It was conferred in nine classes.[1] The First and Second Classes were distinguished by the badge of the order suspended from a yellow sash with white edges plus a breast star. The width of the Second Class sash is narrower and the breast star is smaller in diameter than the First Class sash and breast star. In 1916, a special Second Class was instituted that omitted the sash and sash badge. The Third Class was identified by the badge of the order suspended from a red neck ribbon with white edges. The Fourth through Ninth Class insignia consisted of the badge of the order suspended from different colored breast ribbons as follows: Fourth Class, red with white edges and adorned with a rosette. Fifth Class, red with white edges. Sixth and Seventh Classes, blue with red edges. Eighth Class, white with red edges. Ninth Class, black with white edges.

The badge of the order is a star of eight groups of ascending rays in white enamel with a large circular medallion in the center. Each group of rays has three rays edged in silver and each ray has a silver center line. The medallion contains five standing sheaves of grain in green and yellow enamel on a white enamel background. Surrounding the medallion is a narrow turquoise band edged in gilt with small red, yellow, blue, white, and black dots. These are the colors of the flag of the Chinese Republic, which consisted of five horizontal stripes of red, yellow, blue, white, and black. In the center of the reverse of the badge is a circular medallion of the same size as the medallion on the obverse. The reverse medallion contains four Chinese characters in gilt on a red enamel background that translate as "Order of the Golden Grain." The breast star is the badge of the order superimposed over a large star of eight groups of ascending rays in faceted silver. The reverse is plain with a hinged vertical pin flanked by a vertical hook pin. Stamped in a square in the center is ""Made by Silver Bureau" in Chinese Characters. The sash, neck, and breast badges are suspended from a device of two adjoining silver cloud symbols. This order was abolished by the Nationalist Government in 1929 and replaced by the Order of the Brilliant Jade. [2]

[1] Kwok, King "Orders of the Golden Grain and Precious Brilliant Golden Grain Republic of China (1912 ? 1929) The Journal of the Orders and Medals Society of America Vol. 53, No. 3 (May-June 02) States that he believes there is an additional class to both the Order of the Golden Grain and the Order of the Precious Brilliant Golden Grain.

[2] Hong, Henry "Chinese Warlord Period Awards" The Journal of the Orders and Medals Society of America Vol. 52, No .2(Mar-Apr01): 19-24.

[Ed_Haynes]

Thank you, Richard. I was looking for those references, but my JOMSA back-issue files are in such chaos these days . . . .

[Richard LaTondre]

Thank you, Richard. I was looking for those references, but my JOMSA back-issue files are in such chaos these days . . . .

Hello Ed:

The Order of the Golden Grain and the Order of the Most Precious Brilliant Golden Grain, are perhaps two of the most beautiful orders, as well as two of the most misunderstood Orders of the Republican Period. The article that I quoted for Lilo is from my forthcoming book "The Orders and Medals of China" which I have decided to publish in the very near future. I have at least a chapter devoted to the subject as well as the actual medals of President Yuan Shik'ai.

Best Regards,

Richard

[lilo]

Hello Richard,

Thanks for your very precious informations that helped me in further understanding these 2 Orders.

I need ? if possible ? that you specifically answer each of the below questions:

1)

Does the Order of Chia-Ho followed by the words "Ta-Shou Pao-Kuang" exactly identify the Order of the 'Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain' ?

2)

Am I correct that the words 'Excellent Crop' were exclusively used to indentify the Order of the 'Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain' and NOT also the Order of the 'Golden Grain' ?

3)

Regarding the ribbon of the 'Golden Grain' order, can you confirm or not that is true what told me a friend collector that were used 2 types of ribbons ("The original issue colours of the Golden Grain ribbon was yellow with red borders. This was changed in 1916 to yellow with white border") ?

4) A propos of the colours of the ribbon of the Order of the 'Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain' can you confirm that the :

-1st class is ?red with yellow border? ?

-2nd class has the above colours inverted and so is ?yellow with red border? ?

If you will have the patience to answer the 4 questions (you can simply answer also with a ?yes? or ?not?) then I will have all clear about these two orders and will have the possibility to take to a end the search project I?m doing

Awaiting to hear from you again

Best Regards

Lilo

Edited October 31, 2007 by lilo

[lilo]

Hello Hugh,

You told me that the ribbon colours of the 1st and 2nd classes of the ?Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain? and Golden Grain? Orders are as following :

The sash(ribbon) of the Order of the Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain:

1st Class: red with yellow border;

2nd Class: red with blue border.

The sash(ribbon) of the Order of the Golden Grain:

1st Class: yellow with red border;

2nd Class: yellow with white border.

I would have some clarification as following :

1)

A propos of the colours of the ribbon of the Order of the 'Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain', in the auction catalog of Sotheby?s (24-28/3/1995) I have found 2 Lots with two distinct photos -one in colour for the 1st class and the other in B/W for the 2nd class - of the Chinese, Order of the Precious Golden Grain. Following are the extract of the descriptions in the catalog :

-Lot 341 (color photo on pag 71): China, Order of the Precious Golden Grain [or Excellent Crop], by the Chinese Government Mint, Great War Period, 1st class (with Gran Cordon and Jewels) set of insigna, comprising sash badge and breast star ??????etc???????with original red and yellow sash.

-Lot 342 (B/N photo on pag 74) : China, Order of the Precious Golden Grain [or Excellent Crop], by the Chinese Government Mint, Great War Period, Sash class, 2nd class set of insigna, comprising sash badge and breast star.

I have below attached the 2 photos (1st and 2nd classes) from which you can see/note the colours for both the 1st and the 2nd classes ribbons.

Moreover, as you can note in both the descriptions were used the words : 'Great War Period' meaning that these examples were issued for WW1.

Regarding in particular the 2nd class, the colours of the (sash) ribbon, although the photo is in B/W, can be clearly desumed confronting the various grey shades of the B/W photo with the colour photo of the 1st class : they appears to be inverted. So the conclusion to which I arrived is that the colours for the 2nd class are : ?yellow central stripe + 2 edge red stripes?.

This clearly differ with the description you made of the colours (red with blue border) of the 2nd class of this Order.

My questions :

Can it be that during WW1 for the 2nd class of this Order were used the colours : 'yellow central stripe + 2 red edge stripes' ?

Or these colours were used when the 2nd class of this Order was issued to a foreign (as can be an UK national) ?

What do you know/think about it ?

2)

The following considerations are ESCLUSIVELY referred to the 1st and 2nd classes of the Golden Grain (not also to the other numerous classes of this Order).

A fellow collector (of whom I don't remember the name) explained me that 2 different types of ribbons were used for the ribbon colours of the 'Golden Grain' order,. This collector told me : "The original issue colours of the Golden Grain ribbon was yellow with red borders (1st type ribbon). This was changed in 1916 to yellow with white border (2nd type ribbon).

I ALSO was suggested that the ?yellow with white border? was contemporaneously used for both the 1st and the 2nd classes, and athough the most part of the photographic references I found seems to confirm this I discovered some evidence that confirmed that really 2 ribbons with different colours were used for the Golden Grain Order. To confirm the use of these 2 different colours of ribbons, I have attached 2 photos (3 and 4) as following :

The first photo I have attached is from (I think) a Chinese museum and the Golden Grain shown is a 1st class suspended from a Yellow (that is so faded to seem white) wide central stripe and 2 red edge stripes sash (see photo nr. 3 attached).

The second photo is taken also from the Sotheby?s catalog (24-28/3/1995) to which I referred to above:

-Lot 343 (B/W photo on pag 75): China, Order of the Golden Grain, by the Chinese Government Mint, Great War Period, GRAND CROSS [= 1st class] set of insigna, comprising sash badge and breast star ????????etc???????with original yellow and red sash(see photo nr. 4 attached).

As you can note both photos (and the description) I attached, refer to a 1st class and both have the same colours (yellow with red border). This perfectly coincide with the colours of the ribbon you told the 1st class of the Golden Grain Order has.

My question is simple :

Does the difference in the use of the colours of the ribbons is strictly linked to a change of ?class? (i.e. different class = different colours) or does it depends from a ?temporal factor? i.e. from a certain period on (possibily from 1916 on ???) there was a change in the colours of the ribbons ?

In other words ?after having established that 2 different colours for the Golden Grain Ribbon were used- the change in the use of these colours depends from the particular ?class? (i.e. 1st or 2nd) or the change regards a particular ?data? (possibily from 1916 on ???) and ?obviously -in this case the colours were identical for both the 1st and the 2nd classes ?

awaiting to hear from you

Best Regards

Lilo

P:S: as the photos are too large to being attached to this posting, I please you to see them as attached to another forum following the link : <a href="http://www.omsa.org/forums/showthread.php?p=9603&posted=1#post9603" target="_blank">http://www.omsa.org/forums/showthread.php?...sted=1#post9603</a> . The photo are put on my post nr. #7

Edited November 5, 2007 by lilo

[Hugh]

Hello Hugh,

You told me that the ribbon colours of the 1st and 2nd classes of the 'Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain' and Golden Grain' Orders are as following :

The sash(ribbon) of the Order of the Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain:

1st Class: red with yellow border;

2nd Class: red with blue border.

The sash(ribbon) of the Order of the Golden Grain:

1st Class: yellow with red border;

2nd Class: yellow with white border.

(Unquote)

Dear Lilo,

I'm flattered (but a little embarrassed) that you think I am so knowledgeable. I think you may have confused with Richard LaTondere, who gave a very good writeup in an earlier post. I suggest that he is better qualified to respond. I'm still waiting for a response from the Armed Forces museum in Taipei to the more limited question in your very first post, but nothing yet.

Just as a matter of interest, i have in my collection a Golden Grain 3rd class, which corresponds exactly with the description in Richard's post.

Best,

Hugh

[Hugh]

Hello Hugh,

You told me that the ribbon colours of the 1st and 2nd classes of the 'Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain' and Golden Grain' Orders are as following :

The sash(ribbon) of the Order of the Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain:

1st Class: red with yellow border;

2nd Class: red with blue border.

The sash(ribbon) of the Order of the Golden Grain:

1st Class: yellow with red border;

2nd Class: yellow with white border.

I would have some clarification as following :

1)

A propos of the colours of the ribbon of the Order of the 'Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain', in the auction catalog of Sotheby's (24-28/3/1995) I have found 2 Lots with two distinct photos -one in colour for the 1st class and the other in B/W for the 2nd class - of the Chinese, Order of the Precious Golden Grain. Following are the extract of the descriptions in the catalog :

-Lot 341 (color photo on pag 71): China, Order of the Precious Golden Grain [or Excellent Crop], by the Chinese Government Mint, Great War Period, 1st class (with Gran Cordon and Jewels) set of insigna, comprising sash badge and breast star ??????etc???????with original red and yellow sash.

-Lot 342 (B/N photo on pag 74) : China, Order of the Precious Golden Grain [or Excellent Crop], by the Chinese Government Mint, Great War Period, Sash class, 2nd class set of insigna, comprising sash badge and breast star.

I have below attached the 2 photos (1st and 2nd classes) from which you can see/note the colours for both the 1st and the 2nd classes ribbons.

Moreover, as you can note in both the descriptions were used the words : 'Great War Period' meaning that these examples were issued for WW1.

Regarding in particular the 2nd class, the colours of the (sash) ribbon, although the photo is in B/W, can be clearly desumed confronting the various grey shades of the B/W photo with the colour photo of the 1st class : they appears to be inverted. So the conclusion to which I arrived is that the colours for the 2nd class are : 'yellow central stripe + 2 edge red stripes'.

This clearly differ with the description you made of the colours (red with blue border) of the 2nd class of this Order.

My questions :

Can it be that during WW1 for the 2nd class of this Order were used the colours : 'yellow central stripe + 2 red edge stripes' ?

Or these colours were used when the 2nd class of this Order was issued to a foreign (as can be an UK national) ?

What do you know/think about it ?

2)

The following considerations are ESCLUSIVELY referred to the 1st and 2nd classes of the Golden Grain (not also to the other numerous classes of this Order).

A fellow collector (of whom I don't remember the name) explained me that 2 different types of ribbons were used for the ribbon colours of the 'Golden Grain' order,. This collector told me : "The original issue colours of the Golden Grain ribbon was yellow with red borders (1st type ribbon). This was changed in 1916 to yellow with white border (2nd type ribbon).

I ALSO was suggested that the 'yellow with white border' was contemporaneously used for both the 1st and the 2nd classes, and athough the most part of the photographic references I found seems to confirm this I discovered some evidence that confirmed that really 2 ribbons with different colours were used for the Golden Grain Order. To confirm the use of these 2 different colours of ribbons, I have attached 2 photos (3 and 4) as following :

The first photo I have attached is from (I think) a Chinese museum and the Golden Grain shown is a 1st class suspended from a Yellow (that is so faded to seem white) wide central stripe and 2 red edge stripes sash (see photo nr. 3 attached).

The second photo is taken also from the Sotheby's catalog (24-28/3/1995) to which I referred to above:

-Lot 343 (B/W photo on pag 75): China, Order of the Golden Grain, by the Chinese Government Mint, Great War Period, GRAND CROSS [= 1st class] set of insigna, comprising sash badge and breast star ????????etc???????with original yellow and red sash(see photo nr. 4 attached).

As you can note both photos (and the description) I attached, refer to a 1st class and both have the same colours (yellow with red border). This perfectly coincide with the colours of the ribbon you told the 1st class of the Golden Grain Order has.

My question is simple :

Does the difference in the use of the colours of the ribbons is strictly linked to a change of 'class' (i.e. different class = different colours) or does it depends from a 'temporal factor' i.e. from a certain period on (possibily from 1916 on ???) there was a change in the colours of the ribbons ?

In other words ?after having established that 2 different colours for the Golden Grain Ribbon were used- the change in the use of these colours depends from the particular 'class' (i.e. 1st or 2nd) or the change regards a particular 'data' (possibily from 1916 on ???) and ?obviously -in this case the colours were identical for both the 1st and the 2nd classes ?

awaiting to hear from you

Best Regards

Lilo

P:S: as the photos are too large to being attached to this posting, I please you to see them as attached to another forum following the link : <a href="http://www.omsa.org/forums/showthread.php?p=9603&posted=1#post9603" target="_blank">http://www.omsa.org/forums/showthread.php?...sted=1#post9603</a> . The photo are put on my post nr. #7