Austria-Hungary Austria (Republic 1918-38), Order of Merit

[lilo]

Hello All,

A propos of the ?Austrian (Republic 1918-38), Order of Merit?, I noted that there are at least 2 versions :

1) that with a ?red? enamelled cross;

2) that with a ?white? enamelled cross.

-What is the difference between them ?

-Have the 2 different colours (?red? and ?white?) a particular meaning ?

-Does the difference have to do to distinguish the military from a civil award or does it have to do with the fact that it could also be awarded to non-Austrian citizens ?

-In other words, from what depends that a person receive the ?red? cross instead of the ?white? cross and viceversa?

Please let me know the difference

Thanks in advance

Lilo

[Gordon Craig]

Lilo,

I am not an expert in this area but it has been the Austrian pratice for some time to use white as the colour for civil awards and red for military awards and is probably the case here. Here is a URL for the civil order presented to Baden Powell in the 1930s. It is a white cross. http://www.pinetreeweb.com/bp-honours-austria.htm

When the Order was reinstituted in 1952, as both a civil and military award, the main cross was red with a white cross in the centre. There is one of these awards shown on emadls. Here is the URL. http://www.emedals.ca/catalog.asp?item=A366#bigPic

Regards,

Gordon

Edited December 15, 2007 by Gordon Craig

[lilo]

Hello Gordon,

Thank you for the answer.

I would like to do a precisation about the Austrian Order attribuited, if I have well understood, to Baden Powell and shown in the web page whose link (http://www.pinetreeweb.com/bp-honours-austria.htm) you have furnished.

The description says :

Quote :

'Baden-Powell received the Grand Cross of the Order of Merit of the Austrian Republic at the time of the Sixth World Scout Conference in 1931 at Baden near Vienna. Photos of the Ribbon, Medal and Cross are courtesy of Herbert Balka, Chief of the Austrian Scouting Museum.'

Unquote

I don't believe AT ALL that the photos in that web page shown the 'TRUE' Austrian Order received by Baden Powell and this because the Order in the left photo is suspended from an incorrect ribbon. We know that Badel Powell received the Grand Cross and the exact colours of the ribbon (sash) for this class of the Order can be seen at :

http://www.medals.lava.pl/at/at2.htm

(For comodity I below have attached a photo of the ribbon in question)

Last, the confirm that my statement is correct, came from the same website, were are at least 2 photos that show Baden Powell wearing the sash of the Grand Cross of this Austrian Order (white ribbon with 2 dark [red] stripes on the edge).

See :

http://www.pinetreeweb.com/bp-austria-1931-6.htm

http://www.pinetreeweb.com/bp-austria-1931-2.htm

As you can see the colours of the sash worn by Baden Powell in the 2 photos and the colours of the ribbon (white with 2 red stripes on the edge) as represented in the 'Austrian ribbon web page' for the Grand Cross of this Austrian Order, perfectly match.

All the best

Lilo

Edited December 15, 2007 by lilo

[speedytop]

Hi Lilo,

Ehrenzeichen f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich

since 1934

?sterreichischer Verdienstorden

The left cross (golden, red enamelled) is:

Goldenes Ehrenzeichen

or

Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse

The right cross (silver, white enamelled, smaller than the golden cross) is:

Silbernes Ehrenzeichen

or

Ritterkreuz

Please see here:

http://www.medals.lava.pl/at/at2.htm

Compare the colours:

5th row, 5th decoration

6th row, 2nd decoration

Regards

Uwe

[lilo]

Hello Uwe,

As the focal point to me is to correctly identify what was really awarded to Lord Baden Powell are you agree wtih what I have written in the post preceding yours ?

In other words I would like you, pending the exame of the 2 photos of Baden Powell (see 2 links I posted above), confirm if He (Baden Powell) received the Grand Cross of 'Austrian Order of Merit' with the :

1) cross made with 'white enamell' (for civil);

2) sash ribbon used for the class received by Baden Powell is : 'white with 2 red stripes near each edge' (see the photo of this sash ribbon I have above attached).

Awaiting to Hear from you again

Regards

Lilo

Edited December 16, 2007 by lilo

[speedytop]

Hi Lilo,

first I want to express, that there is no differentiation between military and civil for this award, the colours are depending on the time-frame they were awarded and the degree of the decoration.

That I want to show in my first post.

Second, I think that there is something wrong about the name of the decoration.

In 1931 an Austrian Order of Merit does not exist, and it is not a Grand Cross at that time.

Once again:

Ehrenzeichen f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich

since 1934

?sterreichischer Verdienstorden

The correct name is in 1931:

Ehrenzeichen f?r Verdienste um die Republik ?sterreich (Decoration for Merit to the Republic of Austria)

And the correct degree at that time is not Grand Cross (Grosskreuz), it is:

Grosses Ehrenzeichen am Bande (Grand Decoration w. Sash)

The cross and the cross on the breast star are white enamelled.

The colours of the sash are correct in Post 3 for the "Decoration for Merit to the Republic of Austria - Grand Decoration w. Sash".

The colours of the ribbon on this website are wrong:

<a href="http://www.pinetreeweb.com/bp-honours-austria.htm" target="_blank">http://www.pinetreeweb.com/bp-honours-austria.htm</a>

That is my opinion.

Regards

Uwe

Edited December 17, 2007 by speedytop

[lilo]

Hello UWE,

Wounderful !

The above Very DETAILED explanation is exactly what I was looking for.

a BIG Thank you for your very appreciated help.

Best Regards

Lilo